2019 Italian Grand Prix | ApexOnlineRacing.com

2019 Italian Grand Prix


iJokeri22

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No sooner does one race end and the next one begins.

Weather doesn't look good for Sunday which will be dream ticket for Mercedes and worst case scenario for Ferrari but at least it will be fun watching Verstappen come through from the back of the grid.

 

Wobbuffet

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Looking like Saturday will be dry though Sunday is kind of up in the air at the moment, but a couple forecasts I've seen are currently predicting rain in the morning mainly with a chance of showers during the afternoon.
If it stays dry in the race then advantage to Ferrari, however Merc will still be a threat as its not only got better race pace but its kinder on its tyres.

Either way even if the front doesn't provide to much action we should still be guaranteed some entertainment in the race, like seeing how quick Mad Max from the back can scythe his way through the field.

And finally @Steve Jackson just to follow on what you said in your last post in the Belgium thread - ok then lets say hypothetically you get what you want and Seb announces after the Monza race he is retiring at the end of this season.

If it happened then who would you honestly hope/expect to see go to Ferrari? - But to make this a bit more interesting, if you select a driver from another team then you have to also name a replacement for that team's driver.
So for example you say Mad Max to Ferrari, you then have to name a driver who takes his seat at Red Bull.
 

Steve Jackson

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Looking like Saturday will be dry though Sunday is kind of up in the air at the moment, but a couple forecasts I've seen are currently predicting rain in the morning mainly with a chance of showers during the afternoon.
If it stays dry in the race then advantage to Ferrari, however Merc will still be a threat as its not only got better race pace but its kinder on its tyres.

Either way even if the front doesn't provide to much action we should still be guaranteed some entertainment in the race, like seeing how quick Mad Max from the back can scythe his way through the field.

And finally @Steve Jackson just to follow on what you said in your last post in the Belgium thread - ok then lets say hypothetically you get what you want and Seb announces after the Monza race he is retiring at the end of this season.

If it happened then who would you honestly hope/expect to see go to Ferrari? - But to make this a bit more interesting, if you select a driver from another team then you have to also name a replacement for that team's driver.
So for example you say Mad Max to Ferrari, you then have to name a driver who takes his seat at Red Bull.
I don't really like speculation. But yeah, the silly season is in full swing. This isn't a season (2020) for a big move as uncertainty surrounds 2021 and onwards.

I think if it doesn't come this weekend, there will be no such announcement from Vettel. It's I think when Ferrari like to confirm drivers for the following season and now we know there is a race in Italy for 5 more years. I don't know how important the lack of a German GP is to Vettel, Italy is now his de facto home race.

Sorry to disappoint, but until that first ball rolls it's all about timing and availability. If it were to happen (Vettel) I dunno if Max would say "come and get me" so it's hard to see who Ferrari would actually move for if Max doesn't shout up. If I were privvy to conversation in the paddock I might be able to hazard a guess but unfortunately I'm not so I won't prove how much I don't know.
 
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Wobbuffet

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Absolute FARCE, that was probably the most ridiculous end to qualifying I've ever seen since I've been watching the sport.

I sincerely hope all 9 involved in that BS get dsq'ed from qualy (ok demoted to the back) as there all as bad as each other in this instance.

I know this has only happened because all teams know how important getting a slipstream/toe is around Monza but even so, I think the FIA need to change the qualy format slightly, keep Q1 and Q2 as it is but they call Q3 the top ten shootout, so lets make it that way by turning it into a one shot qualy - only one driver at a time on a hotlap it'll stop qualy ever finishing with seeing rubbish like that again.

As for the other controversial moment's in Q3 Bottas getting a time when the red flag was out and with Seb's lap, obviously its extremely tough one to call, one view shows him with at least a wheel on the line at all times then another view/angle doesn't, I guess the stewards need the equivalent of goal line technology in this instance.:LOL:

However the most frustrating thing from a Seb perspective is that he clearly had the pace for pole, Seb had no slipstream at all for his lap unlike Leclerc and the Mercs and was only 0.15 behind, obviously only if and buts but does leave me thinking 'what if' on this occasion.

I guess we just have to wait and see what happens with the Q3 investigation and what the weather does tomorrow.
 

Steve Jackson

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Absolute FARCE, that was probably the most ridiculous end to qualifying I've ever seen since I've been watching the sport.

I sincerely hope all 9 involved in that BS get dsq'ed from qualy (ok demoted to the back) as there all as bad as each other in this instance.

I know this has only happened because all teams know how important getting a slipstream/toe is around Monza but even so, I think the FIA need to change the qualy format slightly, keep Q1 and Q2 as it is but they call Q3 the top ten shootout, so lets make it that way by turning it into a one shot qualy - only one driver at a time on a hotlap it'll stop qualy ever finishing with seeing rubbish like that again.

As for the other controversial moment's in Q3 Bottas getting a time when the red flag was out and with Seb's lap, obviously its extremely tough one to call, one view shows him with at least a wheel on the line at all times then another view/angle doesn't, I guess the stewards need the equivalent of goal line technology in this instance.:LOL:

However the most frustrating thing from a Seb perspective is that he clearly had the pace for pole, Seb had no slipstream at all for his lap unlike Leclerc and the Mercs and was only 0.15 behind, obviously only if and buts but does leave me thinking 'what if' on this occasion.

I guess we just have to wait and see what happens with the Q3 investigation and what the weather does tomorrow.
The Stewards have bottled it AFAIK. Yeah, there needs to be a change to Q3, let them do one lap on their own based on Q2 order; 10 to 1. Send them out at 1 minute intervals to fit into the 12 minute window.
 
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Wobbuffet

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The Stewards have bottled it AFAIK.
The stewards haven't covered themselves in glory, not only have I seen on twitter Seb looking like he's gone all 4 wheels of the track, but then there's Bottas who's time in Q3 counted - clearly after the red flag was out:



But this official stewards statement on Hulkenberg says it all, especially one particular part:


'The Stewards strongly recommend that the FIA expedite a solution to this type of situation.'o_O

I take that as an admission by the stewards that they realised their hands are tied on this and can't actually do anything worthwhile, and asking the FIA for a solution in a statement for the world to see is pretty much akin to the Stewards shouting to the FIA: 'HEY YOU GUYS - DO SOMETHING! (while banging there fists on there desks in anger and exasperation) The rulebook is as good as a chocolate teapot in these circumstances...' (dejected stewards then leave en masse to find some spirits to raise there spirits)
 
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Wobbuffet

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Anyway as for the race,
50% chance of rain shower tomorrow! (Sorry today)
yeah I've seen 2 different forecasts recently one has just morning rain (a lot of it) with the afternoon being dry and the other has rain all day but only 30-40% chance during the race.

Either way I'm expecting a Merc win now (likely Hamilton) as even if its dry with all the laid down rubber definitely being washed away and track evolution gone, it'll be a green circuit and normally green circuits aren't friendly to tyre wear so Ferrari will likely be in trouble towards the end of there stints.
If its wet or mixed conditions then as I said I would still expect a Hamilton win, but then again after seeing how Germany played out in those conditions, who knows Mad Max might end up winning.:LOL:

As for Seb, I think its important that he's get ahead of Bottas at the start as I believe he has the pace to match Leclerc and Hamilton, but we'll see I guess.
 

acerees

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Only a very small chance of a shower now during the race. The Italian gods have been kind to Ferrari.
 

ClassicDelta

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Well that was awesome!
Congratulations Charles Leclerc for winning at Monza for Ferrari infront of all the Tifosi.
The pressure he soaked up from Lewis and then Bottas for the entire race was so impressive. Truly the making of a future champion.

I think we can all safely say that Vettel has completely lost it now too.

Ricciardo P4 and Hulkenberg P5 was good to see too.

All in all though, i'm just over the moon for Charles. Last week should have been the greatest day of his life but obviously he could not feel that. Today will feel like winning the world championship.
 
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Hazzanatorr77

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Absolutely amazing race. I can sense a real changing of the guard now at Ferrari... 2020 will be a make or break season for Seb and his potential future in Ferrari and even f1 itself.
 

Steve Jackson

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Absolutely amazing race. I can sense a real changing of the guard now at Ferrari... 2020 will be a make or break season for Seb and his potential future in Ferrari and even f1 itself.
If he even drives in 2020. They (Ferrari) put Kimi out to pasture, remember?

Much as it is tongue in cheek, where do you think Ricciardo or Hulkenberg might have finished in that other Ferrari? Vettel cam nowhere close to extracting the maximum from the package and I think that has been the case for a while now. Another unforced error. He's not a happy bunny, nor is he a great driver. He's had his arse handed to him in the best car on the day.

Thought it was a great race BTW. I absolutely agreed with every word of Ant Davidson's summing up (a very rare occurrence).
 

Hazzanatorr77

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Much to back up your point too he is only 3 penalty points from a race ban, and those points don’t expire until the US gp. I’ve never seen such a series of continuous calamitous errors from a world class driver. How many accidents and spins has he had since the start of last season? He is still a very good driver on his day but wow is he declining fast and that is very concerning for Ferrari. If he was let go or potentially retire who do they put in? You have the likes of Ricciardo and Hülkenberg but they are tied down with Renault and maybe hulk would soon be with haas. Other than that who do Ferrari target? Giovinazzi does not look ready, Kimi is ending his career with Alfa Romeo, Grosjean looks poor recently, Perez has signed a new long term contract and Sainz seems committed to mclaren for the time being.
 

LC SPEED DEMON

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Vettels career...
Rising talent
Great potential
World champion
4time world champion
Regularly beaten by ricciardo
Leaves to join Ferrari
Mistake after mistake cost him world title
Beaten regularly again by another kid
Mistake after mistake making him look like a clown
Chucked dummy out pram at Canada
Takes max out
Getting seriously out paced by team mate
And finally rejoins the track like a noob and ruins another drivers race.

Taxi for vettel
 

Wobbuffet

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My thoughts in the race, well can't argue we got treated to another entertaining race at Monza with another close battle at the front with some controversy thrown in.
I have to admit I was expecting Leclerc to get a pen for the Hamilton off track incident but I suspect he was saved from it, with the threat of 100,000 tifosi rioting and waiting for the stewards outside the stewards room.:LOL:

Either way once again this underlines my point from earlier in the season that the stewards aren't consistent and do seemingly choose to follow the rulebook when it suits them.

Anyway after Hamilton killed his tyres and made a mistake, it allowed Bottas to have a chance at Leclerc to try take the win and in the process maybe put a potential late championship challenge on, but he couldn't muster anything.

Have to admit I was curious to see what Merc was going to do once Bottas caught Hamilton, and if they would have asked Hamilton to let Bottas past and whether Hamilton would have let him by, I'm sure some of you will think 'of course he would have let him by - providing he gave the position back at the end'.
But equally at this stage of the season even with his big points advantage, the last thing Hamilton would want is to potentially allow Bottas to start clawing back ground, (you have to remember he didn't let Rosberg pass at Hungary when ordered to) but obviously this is irrelevant now, I guess so we'll never know how it would have played out.

As for Seb's race...
Well I'll get into that in another post, but needless to say even I was dumbfounded how his race suddenly fell apart out of nowhere.

Renault had a great day and 4th and 5th was legitimate for them to a degree and this is positive signs for their future, ok Mad Max started at the back and Albon had a early off that effected his race, but I think RB would have been kept honest by Renault in a even fight on Sunday.
 

Wobbuffet

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Ok with Seb's race it turned into a total disaster, firstly I have no arguments over the penalty for the rejoin incident, though I do have to ask others on here slating him for it, what else was he supposed to do?

The simple fact is waiting there isn't an option, as staying where he was - wasn't safe, obviously getting back on the track was risky as well, but it was the lesser of the 2 evils I thought at the time.
Unfortunately these cars don't allow the driver to see much from there cockpit's, and Stroll was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got clipped, who then did the same thing as Seb, but it was the same for Stroll he couldn't see Gasly was coming but he was also in a dangerous place and had to move.

Anyway moving on, yeah I'm now at a loss to understand what is/has happened with Seb over the last couple years, majority of the supposed incidents/errors he had from mid 2017 to the end of the 2018 season I certainly felt weren't as clear cut as some were suggesting, but this year its been pretty clear cut.

When I looked at the spin Seb had at Monza it looked similar to the Bahrain one, just suddenly losing the rear - I can only suspect he's just got caught out on those occasions or its a costly lapse of concentration.

Though something I've noticed and seems to be a common theme in races over the last few years is that it seems 9 times out of 10, whenever Seb makes an error it severely impacts his race and it normally stems from something minor in the grand scheme of things,
Yet when I've seen Hamilton, Mad Max, Bottas, Leclerc make a minor error they get away with it 9 times out of 10, the only race where the roles were genuinely reversed was Germany - Bottas minor error crashed out, Leclerc minor error crashed out, Hamilton 2 minor errors didn't crash out (somehow) but race ruined, Mad Max got away with a minor error (though minor error at Belgium cost him) & Seb actually made a minor error of his own on the final lap, but it didn't cost him.

But apart from that race, its been pretty one sided against Seb and when I see Leclerc who made 2 clear errors on Sunday and get away with them, it does make me wonder why. (as theres no such thing as a calculated error)

I know it sounds crazy but if there are such things as racing gods then there not being fair to Seb, as how else can anyone explain how he seemingly keeps getting severely punished whenever he makes a error in a race, (even if some are minor/small in context) and his rivals don't.

Vettel cam nowhere close to extracting the maximum from the package and I think that has been the case for a while now. Another unforced error. He's not a happy bunny, nor is he a great driver. He's had his arse handed to him in the best car on the day.
Disagree, firstly if your basing that on the last 7 GP weekends then going through each weekend:
France yeah, Austria no, Britain yeah, Germany no, Hungary no, Belgium yeah as for Italy no for qualy yes for race.

Anyway he had a valid reason to be unhappy on sunday, he gave Leclerc the toe at the start of Q3 but wasn't returned the favour, Seb clearly had the pace for pole and was denied the opportunity so understandably he would be unhappy, in the race his pace in the first 4 laps was the same as Leclerc's. (but then we all know what happened on lap 5)

Secondly Merc was clearly the faster race car on Sunday, it was only down to Leclerc's robust (shall we say) defending that Hamilton didn't get by, if he had he would have drove off into the distance - Leclerc's exit from parabolica and straight line speed was the only thing that was keeping him ahead.
Though let me ask you Steve, if in the future races Seb defends exactly the same way that Leclerc did against Hamilton, I take it you would not have any problem or complaints with it? ;)

Vettels career...
Rising talent
Great potential
World champion
4time world champion
Regularly beaten by ricciardo
Leaves to join Ferrari
Mistake after mistake cost him world title
Beaten regularly again by another kid
Mistake after mistake making him look like a clown
Chucked dummy out pram at Canada
Takes max out
Getting seriously out paced by team mate
And finally rejoins the track like a noob and ruins another drivers race.

Taxi for vettel
Are you perhaps suggesting he's on a downward spiral LC? :p

Though joking aside after Leclerc's non pen call, I think Seb was right to feel aggrieved at Canada and as for getting seriously out paced by team mate line, in general it simply isn't true - unless your saying when Seb has been outpaced by Leclerc in a few races by a couple tenths on occasions, that counts as 'seriously outpaced'.o_O
And finally like I asked earlier LC how else was he supposed to rejoin the track?
 

Steve Jackson

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Secondly Merc was clearly the faster race car on Sunday, it was only down to Leclerc's robust (shall we say) defending that Hamilton didn't get by, if he had he would have drove off into the distance - Leclerc's exit from parabolica and straight line speed was the only thing that was keeping him ahead.
Though let me ask you Steve, if in the future races Seb defends exactly the same way that Leclerc did against Hamilton, I take it you would not have any problem or complaints with it? ;)
The Merc wasn't clearly the fastest race car out there. There was a 12mph deficit in straight line speed. The DRS was letting him keep up, not pass.

I did state I agreed with Ant Davidson, verbatim "...I did not like everything I saw out there...."

The difficulty you obviously have is you're comparing apples with oranges. Seb drove off the track and unsafely rejoined on a street circuit with walls. Leclerc jumped a kerb after outbraking himself in a minor way. I'll get onto the defending.

Things I saw from Leclerc were robust, Hamilton had no complaints apart from a little squawk over the radio at the move at Della Roggia. I can see how it might be on the limit for fairness, but it was also likely that he did misjudge the *actual* amount of space he left. There was no negative, Hamilton rejoined intact. It's hard racing, exactly what we want to see. Quite akin to Verstappen on Leclerc at Austria.

I watched Leclerc's exit from Parabolica every lap for track limits. He was using every inch of the road (almost always nearly 4 wheels off), but nothing you could penalise him for.

He drove absolutely on the limit of everything, which was terrific. He drove brilliantly under pressure, responding in the best way. Bottas couldn't pressure him when it came to his turn as Hamilton's efforts left nothing on the table. Bottas kept making small mistakes, every time he got within 0.5s he lost 1s. He didn't deal with traffic, Leclerc used it.

I thought he drove a blinder. Ferrari must be stupid if they think they can't back the kid now. He's been cheated of wins this season prior to the last two. Quite where it leaves Vettel, I dunno. I would not have a problem with him defending the same way, but I doubt he would execute it....as Canada proved.
 

Steve Jackson

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Bad football analogy Jolyon, they don't send players off for professional fouls now in the case of a penalty, even if it would warrant a second yellow. Likewise goalkeepers. Double jeopardy.

It would have to be something other, like serious foul play or striking an opponent.
 

LC SPEED DEMON

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@Wobbuffet the answer to your question is simple, wait for the other cars to pass. What he did was very selfish. Sums him up on track
 

Wobbuffet

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(LC your reply is at the bottom of this post - just to save you time if you wish lol)

The Merc wasn't clearly the fastest race car out there. There was a 12mph deficit in straight line speed. The DRS was letting him keep up, not pass.
In terms of straight line speed you'll get no argument from me there the Ferrari had the advantage, and yes DRS was allowing Hamilton to close up, but equally in the corners it was where the Merc excelled and Hamilton was able to stay that close even with following in the dirty air of Leclerc, and that's why the Merc was the quicker race car on Sunday, had Hamilton got ahead I'd be pretty confident he would have pulled way.

I did state I agreed with Ant Davidson, verbatim "...I did not like everything I saw out there...."
I didn't see Ant Davidson post race so I didn't know what he said.

The difficulty you obviously have is you're comparing apples with oranges. Seb drove off the track and unsafely rejoined on a street circuit with walls. Leclerc jumped a kerb after outbraking himself in a minor way. I'll get onto the defending.

Things I saw from Leclerc were robust, Hamilton had no complaints apart from a little squawk over the radio at the move at Della Roggia. I can see how it might be on the limit for fairness, but it was also likely that he did misjudge the *actual* amount of space he left. There was no negative, Hamilton rejoined intact. It's hard racing, exactly what we want to see. Quite akin to Verstappen on Leclerc at Austria.
But this is the thing if the stewards follow the rule book (which we both know you have loved to quote from in the past ;)) then Leclerc should have got the same 5 second penalty that Verstappen got the year before for doing the exact same thing.
With Seb's rejoin at Canada we went through that, (he didn't 'drive of the track') he made a minor error similar to Leclerc's, though Seb didn't have the fortune to be able to cut the corner and drive on tarmac, Seb rejoined as safely as possible under his circumstances, and had there not been a wall on that exit does that now mean Seb doesn't get a pen then in your view?:unsure:

Look I'm all for hard fair racing but at the end of the day its the principle, you can't penalise one incident and then not the other if the rulebook states both are penalties, regardless of the two separate situations.
The stewards had the option of being lenient and show a bit of common sense despite what the rulebook said, however they give leeway too one but not the other, its clear double standards so I have to wonder where was Seb's black and white flag at Canada.

I watched Leclerc's exit from Parabolica every lap for track limits. He was using every inch of the road (almost always nearly 4 wheels off), but nothing you could penalise him for.

He drove absolutely on the limit of everything, which was terrific. He drove brilliantly under pressure, responding in the best way. Bottas couldn't pressure him when it came to his turn as Hamilton's efforts left nothing on the table. Bottas kept making small mistakes, every time he got within 0.5s he lost 1s. He didn't deal with traffic, Leclerc used it. I thought he drove a blinder.
Yeah I noticed that as well at parabolica, anyway I ain't arguing it was a great overall drive by Leclerc on Sunday he did what he had to, with Bottas I think he needs to find his Australia 2.0 self right now, though since he's got that new deal with Merc he's not been to far away from Hamilton the last 2 races.

Ferrari must be stupid if they think they can't back the kid now. He's been cheated of wins this season prior to the last two. Quite where it leaves Vettel, I dunno. I would not have a problem with him defending the same way, but I doubt he would execute it....as Canada proved.
The thing with Canada barring that one error they didn't really have a proper battle, but Seb basically kept Hamilton at bay all that race, though they did go went wheel to wheel for a few laps at Belgium (when Seb's tyres were dead) and you said it yourself 'that Seb defending was faultless', so we both know he can defend properly (and fairly).

Lastly looking ahead for Seb, well the man himself is 'not worried':
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49635086

The thing is despite the media and fans portraying he's in crisis and under huge pressure, Seb's still showing a very calm demeanour, obviously no one truly knows what he's thinking (barring the man himself), but despite what a few have said on here I do agree with his assessment of his form.
Though he obviously shouldn't be making these errors in the first place, that's 4 this season now and with Singapore next no driver can afford to make one there, as that normally results in losing a wheel hitting the wall.

I guess we can only wait and see how the final third of the season plays out for Seb.

@Wobbuffet the answer to your question is simple, wait for the other cars to pass. What he did was very selfish. Sums him up on track
But Seb or any driver in that situation can't see whats coming traffic wise, unfortunately they don't have a minimap of the circuit where all the cars are, if he simply waited as you say LC he could have been waiting all day like this:

Look everyone knows he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't, but I think you'll find all F1 drivers are 'selfish' to some degree at the end of the day and they have to be. If they weren't then Stroll would have stayed put after being clipped by Seb and Leclerc would have given Hamilton space wouldn't he.;)