PC - AOR ACC Elite R3+R4 Enquiry | ApexOnlineRacing.com

PC AOR ACC Elite R3+R4 Enquiry


Chloé

Project CARS Coordinator
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
Mar 16, 2019
331
189
This is not really an enquiry, but more like a small recap of bad moves (ie. involving spin/off track) during the last few rounds. (Doesn't mean you can't get penalized)
Things can be done, some can't, those are penalized.
Sometimes it happens to make a mistake, but as seen below, names are appearing recurrently.
Crashes are cool to watch, but clearly,
it is not encouraging people to join us. (That's what we want right ? New fast and clean drivers to join ?)
So please, behave yourself, you guys are Elite Tier, you are supposed to show the example and yet...

93571


From what i saw, that's what i'm also thinking about tier 1 when I watch the stream... We're looking like a bunch of amateurs.
I'm somehow kind but i'll make sure to be much more stricter starting from now, and especially for the next season.

It takes a lot of time to make those kind of things (Coordinating, stewarding, server test, evaluation, placement...).
We, coordinators, would rather drive and have fun than playing cops. Our patience isn't unlimited, if it does happen again, some drivers might have to prove again that they can race safely around other people.


TL;DR: Play bumper car recurrently, break the rules (AOR Rolling Start, Formation lap procedure...) and you are banned from the league.

Platform + League: PC ACC Elite Tier Round 3+4
League Coordinator: @Chloé
Date: 22/08/2019
Members Involved: Listing below
Description: Small recap of major incident (ie. involving spin/off track)
Did the Driver wait to give back any positions required: Listing below
Evidence:

0:00-0:18 @THR Wolf @amir_hosseini @Murphy Punt
0:18-0:27 @amir_hosseini @Mr. Van Ommen Punt
0:27-0:38 @amir_hosseini @Berg Punt (+unsafe rejoin ?)
0:38-0.45 @Mr. Van Ommen @ESR_theschmid Punt
0:45-0:54 @ESR_theschmid @paleez Punt
0:54-1:00 @ESR_theschmid @paleez Punt


0:00-0:26 @amir_hosseini @KrypticTMG Jump start then followed by massive pile up, restarted
0:26-1:02 @amir_hosseini Jump start
1:02-1:11 @amir_hosseini @Chrismk360 Punt
1:11-1:19 @Tudesertpac @WarnTyre Divebomb (Hello tudes :whistle: )
1:19-1:38 @amir_hosseini @jlacey1995

Pt. 2 @eXcole @Dimitri Goeman Start rub




Tagging ACC Coordinators: @AndrexUK @Chloé @Def @GIXXERosg @Shooter80 @VoodooChild
 

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AndrexUK

2 times PC Project Cars 2 Champion
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
May 6, 2015
5,336
5,242
I have to agree with what @Chloé has already said!

The Coordinators put in a lot of time and effort to create the leagues (And there are a lot of other staff that give up their time to do many things behind the scenes that go towards making a league successful!

I FULLY understand that we are here to race! but you have came HERE (AOR) to race, and this is not a public lobby!
We have HIGH driving standards that ALL drivers must meet! If you are not meeting that standard, then you will not be allowed to drive here!

Again, I do understand that we are racing, and that can lead to contact's - But this number of incidents is NOT ACCEPTABLE!
We all know the ACC netcode / contact physics is not perfect! So driving with inches to the next car is asking for trouble!
Also, the damage in ACC seams to be rather exaggerated. So do you really want to risk picking up damage just from a small tap? And having to carry that damage for the rest of the race?
You will loose a lot more time, than that 1 position you were trying to gain!

This is not pCars2 where you can scrape your way past people! If you make any contact, one if not both cars are going off the track!
If you are behind someone, it is YOUR responsibility to not hit them! They may be earlier on the brakes than you are (or than you expect), or take a different line (perhaps defending their position). But it is YOUR fault if you make contact.

The examples above have not been taken to the stewards, but I'm going to go ahead and issue a warning to the drivers causing the contact above!
If any of you listed below are involved in causing an incident / breaking the AOR rules in the final race, I will be taking that as a sign you are incapable of driving with others!

@amir_hosseini (You were involved with 7 of the 12 incidents above - That is not just bad luck! Consider this a final warning!)
@Berg
@ESR_theschmid
@paleez
@KrypticTMG
@eXcole

Some of you listed above I know are safe drivers, so it won't be a problem being on the list, as I don't expect you will be involved in any further incidents.
But there are a few names here that are most certainly going on the watch list!

I am not prepared to keep dangerous drivers in the league! You have agreed to the rules when signing up. If you can't follow them you will be removed from this, and other leagues in the future!
I have a duty to keep the racing as clean as possible, and if that means I have to remove drivers, then I will!
Drive with respect, and patience towards the other drivers you are sharing the track with!
Drive SAFE! if you are in any doubt, don't go for the move!

Lets have a nice final round please!
 

eXcole

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 11, 2018
81
86
While i agree with everything said above and caused an utterly idiotic crash myself - for which i would absolutely accept a (harsh) penalty as i'm terribly ashamed by it - i don't really think its fair to single out six drivers who are involved in an incident in the recent 2 races, just because there were too many cases (and the majority of them from one person).

First because it weighs relatively simple mistakes against careless driving (@KrypticTMG jump start - against my amateur tap with far worse result, or even worse, multiple crashes in the same race).
Second because it simply ignores incidents in the first two rounds which had the same severe consequences, but its just luck for them it was early in the season (?).
Third because the incidents shown by Chloé are not the only ones, which is understandable for time reasons, but still not all of them. Also some minor things are worth mentioning for the reason alone that they need to be cleared up for the future i would think.
Fourth because some rules get major attention (jump start) and are rated the same as a crash, while others deemed minor (from my perspective) are ignored (formation point and procedure, chatting (with your teammate) in the race or before everyone has finished, leaving the session, rude language in chat, pitting in formation lap and therefore disturbing the order)

I mean you can and should do something about the behavior shown, but it is my opinion you should enforce all rules equally, minor or major, in a way everyone can comprehend them (e.g. use the main thread for warnings regarding xyz, so everyones sees action is beeing taken). And either issue warnings to all drivers who fucked up this season (which is ofc hard to do), or the league as a whole as a reminder. Otherwise people just go unnoticed and were lucky, which is - again - not fair in my opinion.

@ESR_theschmid @aidtheace and @WarnTyre pitted at the end of the formation lap. Since we have no mandatory stop like in PC2 the section about it is missing from the rules. However we have this line: "- Any drivers sustaining damage during the formation lap have to take the rolling race start, and are not allowed to take to the pit-lane to repair. " with a reason given: "The main reason for this is if someone pulls off into the pit-lane when in 2 x 2 formation, it's a complete utter logistical nightmare to get everyone else behind to then switch to the other side of the grid so there are no gaps before the race start. " Even if the right wording isn't there, its pretty clear the intention is to force an orderly formation. That needs to be cleared up.

@Tudesertpac brakes too late not once, but twice in the span of a lap, both times touching WarnTyre. I know he already got called out once (but more in private) and he is trying to drive cleaner (which he achieves i think), but ACC being ACC, both these touches can result in damage, maybe has.

WarnTyre taps @ZeroStefan after the overtake is practically complete. I would deem this a major incident, Stefan looses 4 positions. The only reason this doesn't result in a spin or quite possibly a multiple car crash is because he manages to hold it, but it can be seen how hard that was. WarnTyre fails to wait.

@BIGPRENTA spins on his own in the last chicane. He is standing in an awkward place but waits patiently for alot of cars to go by. Until he doesn't anymore und crashes into @amir_hosseini

If we're counting failures from abandoned starts (we do apparently), then its worth mentioning that @Berg also jumped it, but realised his mistake pretty quick. @Samuel Ratz however did not, crashed into ZeroStefan who in turn crashes into Berg, who looses control because of it and there we have the massive pile-up of attempt #1.

Now i just looked at the first half of Barcelona, maybe i could find more in the second half, maybe not. I know for a fact that i could find more from Hungary if i still had the replay. And ofc Spa and Nürburgring not counted at all. Doesn't really matter to me, its not repeatedly bad behavior but things that happen. So i also don't wanna judge or offend anyone (just look at me..), just show what i could gather in a short time.

So, please, don't give such warnings if you don't want to spent time looking at everyones races. Even if you're understandably angry because of the work put into this league (thankyou, really), you still need to be objective and punish everyone, not only some to make an example out of bc we're the recent ones, if you want to do this from now on. That ofc excludes obvious multiple offenders if that gets your attention. But we only have one or maybe two here.

No offense. I honestly appreciate the dedication and thanks for even making the league happen despite the difficulties you hinted at. But it's just not black and white everytime. So watch everyone and judge everyone, not just ones shown by one person. Your list needs to be bigger or not there at all to be fair to everyone, which i know you are and learned AOR to be since i joined last year. Thankyou.

ps: Also to everyone, use the Stewards if something happens. Then there's clearer documentation of stuff that happens, clearer record for drivers and examples for others to go on. And the coordinators don't need to call for a great hunt and spend even more time with this stuff then they already do.

@AndrexUK @Chloé
 

AndrexUK

2 times PC Project Cars 2 Champion
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
May 6, 2015
5,336
5,242
I knew one would bite... And I suspect others are maybe thinking the same, so don't take the following as a direct message to you (@eXcole ), but rather EVERYONE!

I fully agree with what you are saying, and I shall start by saying, I would love to be able to take every incident to the same level!
It does seam harsh to be giving out warning like this from out of the blue, but the main reason for this, is that it is (sort of) being used as an example.

We simply do not have the man power to check the replay from start to finish (if the replay last long enough in the first place) and watch every driver.
Even using fast forward, that's 25+ drivers x 45 mins (will say FF drops this to 15 mins) = 375 mins (over 6 hours).
If you want to spend that amount of time each week on reviewing replay's then be my guest (Trust me, I have been there, and done it! And you wouldn't need to ask many other Cods to prove I have!) I think we all have better things to do! No?

Therefore, we rely on drivers raising steward inquiries, since those replay's above are new to me, that means they are not being raised.
And if they are not being raised, the bad driving will continue to happen (since they are not being told they are not following AOR rules).
And if they are not being raised, then ppl should not be complaining about the low driving standards.

I am fully aware that most of us here would like to think of AOR as a family (of sorts...) and don't want to be 'THAT GUY' that raises a complaint about someone else.
They don't want to create any bad atmosphere that might happen after someone is given a penalty from a stewards inquiry.
But you are all responsible about the league you drive in. We all have a duty to make any league we take part in, to be the best it possibly can.
And failing to raise an inquiry, will not highlight potential problems that can be dealt with.

I've heard several ppl mention 1 or 2 names of drivers that seam to be causing far more than their fair share of incidents. Yet looking at the Inquires section, there are very few cases being raised. So how can ppl expect things to improve if they don't take the time to raise the case.
If everyone does it, then it doesn't carry the 'stigma' of being 'That Guy' that raises a case.
Multiple cases will identify an issue that needs to be reviewed beyond the issuing of a penalty.
But we don't know that it's multiple issues, unless each case is brought to our attention.
Perhaps some are relying on the fact that they won't be put to the stewards?

So yes, it is a bit of a 'knee-jerk' reaction! But I stand by it!
At the end of the day, the example in the previous post should be nothing to worry about, as everyone should be doing their absolute best to avoid any contact. And if you are being as careful as you should be, then it's highly unlikely to happen again in the last remaining race.

We are all here for the same reason. We join a League to have clean racing! If ppl are putting too much focus on winning, and causing incidents due to their 'must win' mentality (instead of enjoying the fun of driving with others), then perhaps they need to review what their objectives are.
I'm not saying ppl shouldn't be trying to win, but they should not be tunnel visioned as to be disrespectful to others.

And at no point did I say that if the drivers listed are to cause a single incident, that they will be instantly removed.
 

eXcole

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 11, 2018
81
86
We simply do not have the man power to check the replay from start to finish (if the replay last long enough in the first place) and watch every driver.
Even using fast forward, that's 25+ drivers x 45 mins (will say FF drops this to 15 mins) = 375 mins (over 6 hours).
If you want to spend that amount of time each week on reviewing replay's then be my guest (Trust me, I have been there, and done it! And you wouldn't need to ask many other Cods to prove I have!) I think we all have better things to do! No?
I'm pretty dedicated to this league or any other i sign up for, i intend to always race except theres a really good reason not to. I also intend to finish every race no matter how bad it goes (i still got 12th in Barca without doing anything for it, win?), thats a matter of pride even if i fucked it up badly and limp around. So yes, i would spend 6 hours reviewing everyone from start to finish. Probably not all the time, thats a serious time commitment. But if you feel (now or in the future) you got to a point where the coordinators need to take action themselfs i'm certainly willing to do it if you said look at race X. I don't give anything back to this community really so if i can contribute that way why not.

So yes, it is a bit of a 'knee-jerk' reaction! But I stand by it!
I can respect that. (y)

At the end of the day, the example in the previous post should be nothing to worry about, as everyone should be doing their absolute best to avoid any contact. And if you are being as careful as you should be, then it's highly unlikely to happen again in the last remaining race.
Yes, no doubt about that. I just don't like incomplete lists, bc they're not representative and this one looks like "i picked the ones i gathered the fastest". I get why you do it, but not how it's helping. As you said, you don't have the manpower to look at everything yourself and this could also make it look like you take a hard look on your list of people while others get away with it. Thats not a good signal to send either, no matter if thats really the intention or not. Maybe it's just me who reads it that way.

And at no point did I say that if the drivers listed are to cause a single incident, that they will be instantly removed.
Edit: I never doubted an incident would be judged as if it were in normal circumstances. All good.
 
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Shooter80

Assetto Corsa Coordinator
Staff member
AC Coordinator
Premium Member
Dec 23, 2017
897
1,032
Without getting into anything to do with any individual drivers, or any individual events, I just thought I'd share things on a basic level from my point of view.

The driving standards overall in the ACC league so far, have not been as good as it could/should have been. Most people I speak to would like it to improve, so everyone can race hard, but safe and fair at the same time. In order for things to improve, people who repeatedly drive below the standards that the vast majority of safe drivers deserve, need to be encouraged as much as possible to drive at a higher standard.

To achieve this we need incidents to be noticed, reported, documented, and for the stewards panel to form opinions and take the appropriate measures. But for this to happen one of three things need to happen first, either:
  1. Everyone who is in an incident, who feels that someone has not taken as much care as they should have, needs to report it to the stewards
    (Unfortunately this has not been happening)

  2. The coordinators need to trawl though every minute of footage recorded of every driver in every race and document them individually, and report them to the stewards
    (This is not realistic, as the amount of time and effort required is way beyond what AOR have at their disposal)

  3. The coordinators can use the time they can spare, to try to capture some of the events, from some of the races, and hopefully catch enough of the issues to be able to figure out patterns with enough confidence to be able to encourage the stewards to take appropriate action
    (This is not fair overall, as some drivers may be in incidents that are not picked up, where others are, but at the moment its all we have got)
#1 isn't happening so far, #2 can never happen, and #3 is far from ideal, and results in threads like this, and replies from @eXcole (who I would happily share any corner on any track with, wheel to wheel, at any time (y)).

The only real fair, viable, and long term solution to this is #1. It's in everyone's hands, and everyone's power to improve the league, and to improve the quality of the racing they get to take part in, so please do report any incidents you are involved in. It can't be left to coordinators to do it, since the only fair way is 'all or nothing' and 'all' can't happen.

From the coordinators side, perhaps we can change some things to discourage low driving standards, increase penalties, increase the likelihood of quali bans, or race bans, document the penalty points in a more visible manner, etc, but none of that will help if the incidents never make it to the stewards.

Any suggestions for changes that could be made to help encourage people to make stewards enquires are welcome, and will certainly be considered.
 

VoodooChild

Project CARS Coordinator
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
Mar 27, 2018
893
791
In real life races, Stewards constantly check drivers behaviour, racing standards and respect of the rules, and they are able to issue penalties in real time.

In sim racing this is not possible, so we have the Stewards Panel, which relies on drivers raising inquiries.... but very often that doesn't happen because it costs time and effort, drivers steamed off and start to think that it doesn't really matter or change anything, or they don't want to pass for snitches.

We need to get rid of this kind of culture.

Stewards inquiries are not a mean to retaliate or shame the object of the inquiry, but to improve the race awareness of all the drivers and ultimately have clean races.

Stewards issue license points, which means that the driver hit by the penalty will need to be a bit more careful and mindful that collecting further penalties might get him a quali or race ban, or even his license revoked in extreme cases.

If they care, they will be more on their toes and race more carefully. If they don't, they will soon be out of the league.

There is literally no other way to clean up the racecraft in our league, because coordinators' job is to coordinate the league, not to police it.

Sure, they can raise inquiries themselves if they see some blatant disregard of the rules, but that's not what they signed up for.

Besides that, going to the Stewards sometimes give drivers some guidelines about how to race in certain circumstances, and it can even address gray areas in the AOR rules, just like it happened with an inquiry raised earlier this season.

Every single inquiry helps and pushes the league towards a better state.


93624
 
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GIXXERosg

AOR PC GT3 S12 T4 Champion
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
Premium Member
Jul 9, 2016
1,469
919
I've had rear damage 3 out of 4 races so far with one heavy in the dry which I had to retire from after going into the next high speed corner and two in the wet and struggled to get to the pits. If your not aware damage to the rear is a lot tougher than damage to the front, in my opinion. ZERO times out of the 3 races did I do anything wrong, just seemed to get collected into the mess with over aggressive driving.

ACC GT3 Cars, just like IRL have different advantages and disadvantages but it's YOU to understand them.

AOR S1 ACC is about building for a full season, +130 sign ups says people like the game and want to race in the AOR league. Maybe we just ASSUMED people understood what the Stewards Panel is intended for since there are a lot of previous AOR Racers in the league. It's meant to not only bring up race issues but for everyone to learn from them.
 
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KrypticTMG

F1 2nd Driver
Apr 4, 2015
556
829
sorry but feel the need to clear something up i wasnt even trying to jump the start it was actually you guys who forgot to enable the manual formation lap and out of the last corner i was in 5th behind the lexus bouncing off the limiter i was just trying to make sure i was in my rightful position 4th before the end of the acceloration zone, and as soon as it went green my foot was alreay planted because i still wasnt in line with chrismk which is a issue i wouldnt of had if the auto formation lap was disabled like it was for the 2nd restart, but then forgotten again for the 3rd restart.

In any case i just think that we need to remember to disable the auto formation lap at the start because if the guy on pole desicides to go early you are going to get ppl stuck on the limiter which is what happened to prenta infront of me even when jardier went he couldnt move.
 
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Shooter80

Assetto Corsa Coordinator
Staff member
AC Coordinator
Premium Member
Dec 23, 2017
897
1,032
In any case i just think that we need to remember to disable the auto formation lap at the start
Indeed! Its unfortunate that having it disabled can't be part of the server config, and its hard to remember sometimes (I hit enter on disabling it in Tier 2 last race with probably about a quarter of a second to spare :rolleyes:). Its also unfortunate that if you restart you need to do it again (usually after a restart the coordinator is busy talking about why it was restarted).

Of course all the coordinators can, and will, try harder to remember to do it. The game should notify you when its been disabled with some text at the bottom, if anyone hasn't seen that text and the countdown is near finishing, it's probably a good idea to mention it in discord just to be on the safe side.
 
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AndrexUK

2 times PC Project Cars 2 Champion
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
May 6, 2015
5,336
5,242
In any case i just think that we need to remember to disable the auto formation lap at the start
While true, it's not always the easiest thing, as the Admin has to be 'ready'd up' and on the grid before the command will work.
And if they are doing anything to adjust the setup, it doesn't always give much time to type the command.
And it's also easily forgotten, even if there is time to do it. As I suspect @Chloé was probably trying to sort things out in the short amount of time available.

You are correct, but it's not always as simple as 'just remember' :p
 
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KrypticTMG

F1 2nd Driver
Apr 4, 2015
556
829
While true, it's not always the easiest thing, as the Admin has to be 'ready'd up' and on the grid before the command will work.
And if they are doing anything to adjust the setup, it doesn't always give much time to type the command.
And it's also easily forgotten, even if there is time to do it. As I suspect @Chloé was probably trying to sort things out in the short amount of time available.

You are correct, but it's not always as simple as 'just remember' :p
I totally understand no1 is a robot & to be honest all these commands to do this and that is all way to much and i think kunos should of made an extra effort to simplify things because apart from the basic things in this game everything just seems super fiddley and annoying they make simple things very difficult for no reason.
 

Chloé

Project CARS Coordinator
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
Mar 16, 2019
331
189
Indeed, i forgot the retype the command on 3rd restart, was more busy explaining the rules in text and vocal chat.
And also trying to check the serv because many people got unsyncing issues.

I have no right to raise enquiries for other people, nor i have the right to apply penalty myself.
It will take roughly 2-3 weeks to review all races. I did it only once for pc2 donington race. Took me roughly 5h30 on 3 days to check if everyone didn’t cross the pitlane exit line. I won’t waste 2h/day for 3 weeks watching if Mr. X hit Mrs. Y.

This is not my job, it is yours, drivers to report this. Only thing i can do is to warn people in pm but right now i’m getting bored to do it for every race.

Even tho i’m reminding everyone (at each round) to do it, only few does... If after 4 rounds, half the grid didn’t understand that, i won’t be expecting better for the coming round.
 
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Tranq

Pro Karter
Jul 12, 2019
27
9
I really think the formation slow down points need to be enforced more, I wasnt af round 4 so cant speak for that but the only round that was done properly was spa when jardier was pole and even then Amir started on the engineers go and not jardier but Hungary was really bad as some people were still on the final corner too
 

AndrexUK

2 times PC Project Cars 2 Champion
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AC Coordinator
May 6, 2015
5,336
5,242
We are reviewing the start procedure for next season, so there is a chance that a few things may change for the future / test races.
 

Mr. Van Ommen

Formula 3 Test Driver
Feb 4, 2018
204
176
Noted guys. The one between me and theSchmid is one we talked about between us two. After the discussion we left it at that. Anyway, noted.