PS4 - AOR GT SPORT LEAGUE - MAZDA MX-5 Touring Car CUP - MAIN DISCUSSION | ApexOnlineRacing.com

PS4 AOR GT SPORT LEAGUE - MAZDA MX-5 Touring Car CUP - MAIN DISCUSSION


Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
2,611
1,732
OK guy's. Pingtest uploaded and TT done - Come beat my time.... But I warn You, I think it's pretty fast
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Ok I have to get the ball rolling on this and raise a few important points (going to be one of my long ones this post lol), firstly with the race regs I am a tad surprised & concerned to see higher BHP being used as well as only Sport Soft tyres.

Reason being is we all want the racing and field to be as close as possible, but with more power and less gripper tyres this will surely only increase the gaps in the field, I think if you guys had chosen one or the other then I could have understood it to a degree, but doing both of these is a bold decision in my opinion.

However I will say I will trust the co-ords in this instance as A. I've not driven the car yet & B. I strongly suspect these settings were well tested and will probably/hopefully still give us the close racing we all want.

Alright moving on to things that do need to be addressed, and theres a couple things I'm surprised with like the tier system, I've seen we're currently going down the open tier route again.
I thought the league was looking to go in a more simpler direction after the lack of numbers we recently experienced, I can/could understand the use of it in the past but the fact is its not suitable unless you have a lot of driver numbers and a points system that works with it.

And right now its make no sense to use open tier for this upcoming season as lets look at the facts, we only have 4 rounds and at the halfway point you want to potentially move drivers up and down.
If this happened your basically giving the drivers who get promoted zero chance of being able to jump up in the standings and the drivers that go down will likely have a good points advantage over those in the tier they drop too with the remaining 2 rounds.

Just as a reference point the only time open tier really worked was back in Season 6 (Super Formula) but it only worked because there was 8 rounds, SolidNinjaSnake (who is the only real success story of open tier promotion) got promoted after round 2 and finished Runner Up overall, it took him 5 rounds (after round 7) to get into a position to actually be in contention for 2nd, that's how long it took for him to make up the points to those ahead.

Because we only have a 4 round calendar its why drivers who get promoted won't realistically be able to move up the standings, basically open tier won't work or serve its purpose in this instance.
@Delaney and co-ords if we get over 20 drivers, then the only way to be fair to everyone involved it has to be a fixed tier system for this season, (using semi pro points for all tiers) if it was 8, 7 or even 6 rounds you could make the argument for open tier but with only 4 rounds it simply has to be a non-starter.

With regards to how to decide who goes in what tier for a fixed tier system, I do have a alternative idea to help with this.
I will say TT alone does give some indication with driver ability, but its definitely not ideal and the DR (driver rating) spreadsheet needs a overhaul based on the last time I saw it to be frank.
(I'll do a post about DR after this one)

My idea is maybe consider a qualifying race on the night of round 1 before the scheduled round starts (like 1 hour before) to determine who goes in Tier 1 & Tier 2, how it could work is TT can be used to automatically guarantee a few drivers places in the top tier along with other previous driver records over the past also cementing a further 2/3 drivers a place in tier 1. (obviously I know that last bit is controversial, as that would give a few drivers a bye or free pass for TT, but just to put it into perspective I had a poor TT in Super Formula Season 2 and probably would've been allocated in the 2nd tier had there been the numbers, but TT shouldn't be a major factor in deciding driver placements)

As for the rest of the drivers you could either split up the remaining drivers into 2 groups using there TT times as a way to determine groups, and then have 2 separate races.
Say a 5 min qualy with a 15 min race (using the league race settings), top 2/3 finishers in each race qualify for Tier 1 with the those who miss out allocated to Tier 2.

It would be a very simple and fair way to do this, as you'll get to see the genuine pace of drivers in qualy & a proper race. (but this is down to whatever the amount of sign ups are)

Lastly...yes back to the broken record, I simply cannot believe that theres been no change to the points system.
Its undeniably clear that there needs to be a change to it.
Delaney I'm not the only one pointing out the big issue with this combo of race format & current points system, if the league doesn't get the numbers then it can will be abused by drivers.

Sure you may say ok we'll penalise drivers who drop down the field in the feature to take advantage of the reverse grid sprint, but all that would happen is those drivers would then make 'mistakes' or 'dsc' near the end and come back.
The reality is you can't police this/it, you can't penalise someone if they made a mistake(s) or have dsc'd (even if co-ords suspect the driver did do it deliberately), as it is a massive grey area in this instance.
Without doubt taking advantage of the reverse grid sprint is unsporting, but its a sensible thing to do and I don't blame the drivers in the past who have done it, as the reward on offer is better then what you would get points wise then if you didn't.

The thing is though if we got a full room or 15 drivers at least, then the semi pro points system would actually work to a reasonable degree.
But once you get 13/12 drivers or less then the race format & points system can be abused, now I don't know what @TubbyPhantom would be looking for points system wise.

However my stance on what I think needs changing is actual quite minor it doesn't need the league to rip up the floorboards and C4 the foundations of our house, it just need a bit of common sense to be applied and this problem/issue can be nullified to a degree. (as if someone wants to take a dive you still can't stop them, but you can make it so there not getting as much of a reward for it)

Delaney & co-ords what I would propose if we're one tier and get 15 or more drivers then semi pro points can stay the same, but if its 14 or less (or 2 tiers) minor changes have to be made.

Basically change the point system were last scores 1 point regardless, so if on the final day of sign ups theres 12 drivers then the points system would be based on/for 12 drivers, to make this possible higher points in the semi pro system would be taken out, so just to clarify what I mean we currently use:
22,18,15,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 - which is 1st to 16th

But for 12 drivers for example I would put forward:
22,18,15,13,11,9,7,5,4,3,2,1
(so in this instance 12,10, 8 & 6 would get taken out)

If you do something like this It would still keep the points close between drivers, be only a minor change, everyone would still score points (which I know you want Delaney), but most importantly really reduce the incentive for drivers to abuse to the race format and points system.

So in the event it was 12 drivers and we used that system I suggested above, it would mean if a driver did take a dive in the feature and finished last or bottom 2 they would only pick up 23/24 points at most (providing theres no bonus points) - while a driver who drives hard in both races and lets say finishes 4th in both the feature and sprint, would outscore them with 26.

Of course I then I can guess your thinking 'we can't decide the points system on the last day of sign ups', but this league in the past has made changes to its rules in previous seasons - during the season, the league could simply state - 'Points TBC - decided on final sign up day'.
Then theres 'what about mid-season sign ups?' Well if that happened then 0 points would then become a thing as you can't change something as fundamental as the points system during the season, but its well worth remembering this season is only 4 rounds and even if we ended up with a couple extra sign ups, it would only be for a couple rounds at most, I think all of us would be fine with it.

Now I fully believe this is the best way to deal with this issue, I'm honest enough to admit its probably not perfect and I knows its not what you want to probably do Delaney, but its definitely a better alternative then not changing anything at all.
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
As for the DR I briefly mentioned above well going into it, when I think of a DR system theres no magic formula for it, though if I was to rate drivers from past and present its wouldn't be simple though as I have raced against majority here at some point and have seen the nearly all the other in some of the seasons I didn't compete in, but if it was on driver pace then for example the 3 fastest drivers these leagues have seen were: Stevegaming (S6), Jamie995 (S1) & West408 (S1).

Now that's just my opinion, but I do have a good foundation for that as Steve for example, I've seen him finish 5th overall in Europe in the manufacturers series not to long ago, Jamie also is a extremely fast driver who I've seen top of daily race leaderboards before, those 2 are a bit clear of everyone else (and personally I would've like to see those 2 race against each other) with 3rd I picked West because he was able to keep Jamie honest in a few races which is no mean feat, but the likes of Nova (S6), Browneskiii & Solenx (S1) would be very close to West as well.
Then just a bit below that I would put Hollowdene (S2), Ashracer, Hasnain & Myself, that would be for me the top 10 in outright pace.

The thing is though out of that driver pace top 10, 7 of them are 1 season wonders with one of them only racing for a couple rounds, sure you can rate their pace but if any of them came back then that's where you have to consider and factor in past results.

Jamie back in S1 won the championship & did the clean sweep and that has to carry a lot of weight even to this day considering the competition back then, but then you have Ash who's just won his 4th championship here (the most of any) that without doubt catapults him in any DR system/spreadsheet, most of the other drivers who I mentioned above who where very fast but didn't actually win the championship that season or win races and disappear after 1 season have to drop down the DR, as it wouldn't be fair to those who have stuck around and achieved things over the seasons.

The thing is we have the stats and we can now also properly gauge drivers by what they achieved in there time here, its not the drivers of the present's problem if there achieving more then the drivers of the past, as like a football saying goes 'you can only beat what's in front of you.'
Seasons 1 & 6 were without doubt probably featured the fastest drivers in those seasons in our league history, but winning the championship & races have to have the same value.

If I had to give a DR of sorts (factoring in pace as well) my top 3 in no particular order would be: Ash, Jamie & myself.
Rest of the top 10 (again in no particular order): Bl99dy, Hasnain, Hollowdene, Meg1s, Nova, TubbyPhantom, SolidNinjaSnake.
The thing is the likes of Delaney & Gareth Kirk, you guys ain't far away from that list as you've done plenty of races and have got and achieved between them a mix of poles, wins, podiums & FL's to there name, but it wouldn't be enough to displace previous champions even if they did just one season.

Championships have to carry a lot of weight in the DR, and even finishing Runner up in a championship is still worth something. (which I believe most of those drivers in the rest of the top 10 list have done at some point)

But this all just my opinion, I'm sure everyone has there own opinion on how drivers past & present stack up against each other here, I think whatever future avenue you want to pursue Delaney with the DR spreadsheet it won't be perfect and will always be up for debate and maybe even contentious, but I think if all the co-ords and senior drivers put there heads together we could find a agreeable middle ground for us all.
 

Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
2,611
1,732
You've just done my head in @Wobbuffet o_O. Remember that I'm just a dumb Dane, with a limited English vocabulary. I'll have to read through it all multiple times, to get all Your invaluable inputs.

I've updated the DR thread - See latest post for standings.
 
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TubbyPhantom

Formula 3 Reserve Driver
Dec 2, 2018
216
324
I completely agree @Wobbuffet, the tier system should not be open, and in my opinion I would just like to see the points given to the top 10 like f1. I think the problem around the world is that everyone gets a medal/points just for turning up. I'm a purist in that regard. I feel that points should be a really big deal, and an achievement to get. As it stands, even with @Gareth Kirk and I in the league there isn't really enough drivers for anyone to miss out on the points. And as for the DR, I think only the past 2/3 seasons should count. And people like Steve gaming who only did a couple of races shouldn't be included anyway. Another little point I have just thought of about the open tiers, is I can see why people might just discontinue racing if they drop down because of dnf or missed the race through no fault of their own. And there needs to be a champion of each tier, which is another achievement they can put down on their bio's. I really didn't like the fact in the sf there were so many different champions in the same tier, elite, pro, semi pro, rookies etc, they should all be different tier titles. Unfortunately in the real world a rookie champion won't be beating a pro or elite champion in the same race. That's my thoughts anyway, but I can accept that I'm not the one putting the hard work in to make all this happen, and can appreciate being told to sod off might come my way, but I like to be honest and open.
 

Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
2,611
1,732
Ok I have to get the ball rolling on this and raise a few important points (going to be one of my long ones this post lol), firstly with the race regs I am a tad surprised & concerned to see higher BHP being used as well as only Sport Soft tyres.

Reason being is we all want the racing and field to be as close as possible, but with more power and less gripper tyres this will surely only increase the gaps in the field, I think if you guys had chosen one or the other then I could have understood it to a degree, but doing both of these is a bold decision in my opinion.

However I will say I will trust the co-ords in this instance as A. I've not driven the car yet & B. I strongly suspect these settings were well tested and will probably/hopefully still give us the close racing we all want.
Ok, try it out and then We'll talk. My original suggestion was actually to use Sports Hard and Sports Medium. But We ended up with Sports Soft to give everybody a chance. And the Racing Tires were simply too grippy in our opinion.

Alright moving on to things that do need to be addressed, and theres a couple things I'm surprised with like the tier system, I've seen we're currently going down the open tier route again.
I thought the league was looking to go in a more simpler direction after the lack of numbers we recently experienced, I can/could understand the use of it in the past but the fact is its not suitable unless you have a lot of driver numbers and a points system that works with it.

And right now its make no sense to use open tier for this upcoming season as lets look at the facts, we only have 4 rounds and at the halfway point you want to potentially move drivers up and down.
If this happened your basically giving the drivers who get promoted zero chance of being able to jump up in the standings and the drivers that go down will likely have a good points advantage over those in the tier they drop too with the remaining 2 rounds.

Just as a reference point the only time open tier really worked was back in Season 6 (Super Formula) but it only worked because there was 8 rounds, SolidNinjaSnake (who is the only real success story of open tier promotion) got promoted after round 2 and finished Runner Up overall, it took him 5 rounds (after round 7) to get into a position to actually be in contention for 2nd, that's how long it took for him to make up the points to those ahead.

Because we only have a 4 round calendar its why drivers who get promoted won't realistically be able to move up the standings, basically open tier won't work or serve its purpose in this instance.
@Delaney and co-ords if we get over 20 drivers, then the only way to be fair to everyone involved it has to be a fixed tier system for this season, (using semi pro points for all tiers) if it was 8, 7 or even 6 rounds you could make the argument for open tier but with only 4 rounds it simply has to be a non-starter.
It actually very simple. I've seen too many cases over time where people abandon their tier and leave the rest stranded with too few to really have fun. It's in my book not funny to have 2 tiers with 8 racing in each instead of one tier with 16. And as long as I'm heading this, it will not change.

With regards to how to decide who goes in what tier for a fixed tier system, I do have a alternative idea to help with this.
I will say TT alone does give some indication with driver ability, but its definitely not ideal and the DR (driver rating) spreadsheet needs a overhaul based on the last time I saw it to be frank.
(I'll do a post about DR after this one)

My idea is maybe consider a qualifying race on the night of round 1 before the scheduled round starts (like 1 hour before) to determine who goes in Tier 1 & Tier 2, how it could work is TT can be used to automatically guarantee a few drivers places in the top tier along with other previous driver records over the past also cementing a further 2/3 drivers a place in tier 1. (obviously I know that last bit is controversial, as that would give a few drivers a bye or free pass for TT, but just to put it into perspective I had a poor TT in Super Formula Season 2 and probably would've been allocated in the 2nd tier had there been the numbers, but TT shouldn't be a major factor in deciding driver placements)

As for the rest of the drivers you could either split up the remaining drivers into 2 groups using there TT times as a way to determine groups, and then have 2 separate races.
Say a 5 min qualy with a 15 min race (using the league race settings), top 2/3 finishers in each race qualify for Tier 1 with the those who miss out allocated to Tier 2.

It would be a very simple and fair way to do this, as you'll get to see the genuine pace of drivers in qualy & a proper race. (but this is down to whatever the amount of sign ups are)
You could do a lot of things, if We all had all the time in the world. But We don't. On race night We have to take into account that not all racing are British. Some of us actually should leave for bed 30-45 min earlier and some from the main land are way earlier - @Meg1s is fx two hours earlier and do not have time for more "non race time". Then We could have a night dedicated to getting people sorted, but that also take away time where We want to do proper racing.

Lastly...yes back to the broken record, I simply cannot believe that theres been no change to the points system.
Its undeniably clear that there needs to be a change to it.
Delaney I'm not the only one pointing out the big issue with this combo of race format & current points system, if the league doesn't get the numbers then it can will be abused by drivers.

Sure you may say ok we'll penalise drivers who drop down the field in the feature to take advantage of the reverse grid sprint, but all that would happen is those drivers would then make 'mistakes' or 'dsc' near the end and come back.
The reality is you can't police this/it, you can't penalise someone if they made a mistake(s) or have dsc'd (even if co-ords suspect the driver did do it deliberately), as it is a massive grey area in this instance.
Without doubt taking advantage of the reverse grid sprint is unsporting, but its a sensible thing to do and I don't blame the drivers in the past who have done it, as the reward on offer is better then what you would get points wise then if you didn't.

The thing is though if we got a full room or 15 drivers at least, then the semi pro points system would actually work to a reasonable degree.
But once you get 13/12 drivers or less then the race format & points system can be abused, now I don't know what @TubbyPhantom would be looking for points system wise.

However my stance on what I think needs changing is actual quite minor it doesn't need the league to rip up the floorboards and C4 the foundations of our house, it just need a bit of common sense to be applied and this problem/issue can be nullified to a degree. (as if someone wants to take a dive you still can't stop them, but you can make it so there not getting as much of a reward for it)

Delaney & co-ords what I would propose if we're one tier and get 15 or more drivers then semi pro points can stay the same, but if its 14 or less (or 2 tiers) minor changes have to be made.

Basically change the point system were last scores 1 point regardless, so if on the final day of sign ups theres 12 drivers then the points system would be based on/for 12 drivers, to make this possible higher points in the semi pro system would be taken out, so just to clarify what I mean we currently use:
22,18,15,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 - which is 1st to 16th

But for 12 drivers for example I would put forward:
22,18,15,13,11,9,7,5,4,3,2,1
(so in this instance 12,10, 8 & 6 would get taken out)

If you do something like this It would still keep the points close between drivers, be only a minor change, everyone would still score points (which I know you want Delaney), but most importantly really reduce the incentive for drivers to abuse to the race format and points system.

So in the event it was 12 drivers and we used that system I suggested above, it would mean if a driver did take a dive in the feature and finished last or bottom 2 they would only pick up 23/24 points at most (providing theres no bonus points) - while a driver who drives hard in both races and lets say finishes 4th in both the feature and sprint, would outscore them with 26.

Of course I then I can guess your thinking 'we can't decide the points system on the last day of sign ups', but this league in the past has made changes to its rules in previous seasons - during the season, the league could simply state - 'Points TBC - decided on final sign up day'.
Then theres 'what about mid-season sign ups?' Well if that happened then 0 points would then become a thing as you can't change something as fundamental as the points system during the season, but its well worth remembering this season is only 4 rounds and even if we ended up with a couple extra sign ups, it would only be for a couple rounds at most, I think all of us would be fine with it.

Now I fully believe this is the best way to deal with this issue, I'm honest enough to admit its probably not perfect and I knows its not what you want to probably do Delaney, but its definitely a better alternative then not changing anything at all.
This is actually not a bad idea. We'll have a further look at it. But it could actually work. The thing is, that We need to fix the points when We start. We cannot change the points every race, but before the first race could work, with not too much work going into it.


See how short one can actually write....
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Ok, try it out and then We'll talk. My original suggestion was actually to use Sports Hard and Sports Medium. But We ended up with Sports Soft to give everybody a chance. And the Racing Tires were simply too grippy in our opinion.
Well it is a light weight car and as I said, I've got to at least give it a chance and try which I will do very soon, but if your saying Racing tyres would make this car to good/easy to drive then I'll take the co-ords word on it in this instance.

It actually very simple. I've seen too many cases over time where people abandon their tier and leave the rest stranded with too few to really have fun. It's in my book not funny to have 2 tiers with 8 racing in each instead of one tier with 16. And as long as I'm heading this, it will not change.
I agree with that sentiment Delaney and as I've said before I'm not fully against open tier, as it can work but it requires the right circumstances, with not just lots of drivers but a points system to work with it in tandem.

You have to remember that if we end up with 20-22 drivers and the league splits into '2 tiers' using a open tier system.
The current points system won't work for a very obvious reason - Lets say hypothetically we start the season with 21 drivers and have 11 drivers in room/tier 1 and 10 in room/tier 2 for the first 2 rounds.
Now at worst the driver who finishes 11th and last in a tier 1 race would score 21 points and if they were to finish 11th in all 4 races they would pick up a minimum 84 points.

Compare that though to the winner of a tier 2 which is worth 22 points now yes its feasible a driver could win all 4 races in the first 2 rounds in tier 2 and pick up a maximum 88 points - but with reverse grids...Its not likely and the reality is they do well to score 40 points a round (a first and second) and if they did that for the first 2 rounds they would only have 80 points, 4 less then the bottom driver in tier 1.

This means that they have less points (stating the obvious I know) and you can't really promote them to tier 1 for the remaining 2 rounds even if they deserve it, and even if you did the guy on a minimum 84 points will likely have at least a 15-20+ point lead over everyone else in tier 2, you would be basically giving that driver the tier 2 championship and the driver who got promoted will finish 11th and last in tier 1.

And if you went for a 2 promoted, 2 demoted in open tier, it would be even worse as sure you may still make a championship battle happen in tier 2, but it will only be a 2 horse race between those who got demoted and the 2 that get promoted fighting over 10th at best.

But it can be even worse then that, remember when we had the very awkward 9/8 or 9/9 room splits back in Season 4, it only exacerbated this problem and when both rooms eventually merged anyway in the last few rounds of the season, everyone in tier 2 basically got stiffed because they suddenly had no chance to battle for a championship - which was unfair.

Look Delaney I would strongly urge you to reconsider using open tier and just go with the simple fixed tier as its just a 4 round season. (even in the event we get 25+ drivers)
As even if we end up with rooms of 8/7 in each sure we all know its not great, but we raced before with numbers that low and we've still had good racing, remember quality can be better then quantity. and besides keeping things simple as possible in a short format has to be the way to go.

But I will add if your going to stick with open tier for this season regardless, then the current points system has to have a proper overhaul to make it work properly, to not just match the league's current circumstances but also be fair to all those involved, again it would have to be done on the final day of the sign ups to see what the actual numbers are, but sorting out a points system for those circumstances in such a short period of available time - that's no easy thing to do.

You could do a lot of things, if We all had all the time in the world. But We don't. On race night We have to take into account that not all racing are British. Some of us actually should leave for bed 30-45 min earlier and some from the main land are way earlier - @Meg1s is fx two hours earlier and do not have time for more "non race time". Then We could have a night dedicated to getting people sorted, but that also take away time where We want to do proper racing.
Yes I am aware that time is not a luxury we all have, it was just an idea (a good potential one I might add) to help with tier placement, but yeah maybe this is something to look into in the future.

This is actually not a bad idea. We'll have a further look at it. But it could actually work. The thing is, that We need to fix the points when We start. We cannot change the points every race, but before the first race could work, with not too much work going into it.
Well right now we've already got 9 sign ups after just 2 days since the sign up thread was open, and theres 4/5 former/regular drivers that potentially could also sign up, so from a numbers perspective the league this season is looking very healthy.

The irony is that what I suggested in this instance may not be needed as where likely heading with at least one full room/tier for the season, though as I said even if we got around 14 drivers it would need only a very small tweak then.

See how short one can actually write....
I will never apologise for being thorough.;)
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
And there needs to be a champion of each tier, which is another achievement they can put down on their bio's. I really didn't like the fact in the sf there were so many different champions in the same tier, elite, pro, semi pro, rookies etc, they should all be different tier titles. Unfortunately in the real world a rookie champion won't be beating a pro or elite champion in the same race.
Just incase your wondering co-ords, this is probably what Tubby is referencing to:


And quite frankly it is ridiculous, Nova - SNS - Cpt JJ finished 1st, 2nd & 3rd in the overall standings. (SNS was actually 2nd overall after Cpt JJ got a pen after the final round)

Yet all 3 are champions according to this, there was only 2 tiers but 4 champions - which makes this look pretty silly and a mockery of what it means to be a champion, sure Nova was the champion that season, however SNS & Cpt JJ were clearly 'elite' drivers in there own right as shown by the end of the season and shouldn't have been eligible for a Pro or Semi Pro championship.
But SNS and Cpt JJ were runner up and 3rd at the end of the day which is still a very good achievement but you don't get credited a championship for doing that.

(If you did I'd be a '5 time' champion here.:ROFLMAO:)

At least with Meg1s who was around 12th overall, he was in tier 2 for most of the season and could actually legitimately claim in a way to be the tier 2 champion of S6, but he was racing in the top tier for a couple rounds as well, (which you could argue should make him ineligible for tier 2 champion) as in the end only 3 drivers actually raced in tier 2 for all 8 rounds.

Either way I do agree with Tubby something like this should never happen again, if we have 2 tiers this season stick to them and have the tier 1/overall champion and the tier 2 champion.
 

Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
2,611
1,732
Just incase your wondering co-ords, this is probably what Tubby is referencing to:


And quite frankly it is ridiculous, Nova - SNS - Cpt JJ finished 1st, 2nd & 3rd in the overall standings. (SNS was actually 2nd overall after Cpt JJ got a pen after the final round)

Yet all 3 are champions according to this, there was only 2 tiers but 4 champions - which makes this look pretty silly and a mockery of what it means to be a champion, sure Nova was the champion that season, however SNS & Cpt JJ were clearly 'elite' drivers in there own right as shown by the end of the season and shouldn't have been eligible for a Pro or Semi Pro championship.
But SNS and Cpt JJ were runner up and 3rd at the end of the day which is still a very good achievement but you don't get credited a championship for doing that.

(If you did I'd be a '5 time' champion here.:ROFLMAO:)

At least with Meg1s who was around 12th overall, he was in tier 2 for most of the season and could actually legitimately claim in a way to be the tier 2 champion of S6, but he was racing in the top tier for a couple rounds as well, (which you could argue should make him ineligible for tier 2 champion) as in the end only 3 drivers actually raced in tier 2 for all 8 rounds.

Either way I do agree with Tubby something like this should never happen again, if we have 2 tiers this season stick to them and have the tier 1/overall champion and the tier 2 champion.
Of cause this works best, if there are a fixed Tier system, but We do not have that and We are not going to have that. The rather special thing in that season, was that SNS suddenly was way faster than before. In the season's before this, he was battling with BL99DY and me and suddenly he was able to compete with the very best.

I've had a look at the pointssystem. How does this look to You?
Points suggestion A.PNG


But what if We have two room's with fx. 11 and 10 participants?
 
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Ashracer2011

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jan 14, 2014
927
455
No points should be awarded, as we are the MeToo of league racing and no one should be coming last or getting harrassed on track;),.....Delaney buy a sticker book with magic stars and put them on everyone's helmet, and we can get some unicorns with rainbows for everyone to celebrate with.:p

Not sure I'm a fan of the tier system Elite, Pro, Am, given how many people race it's a bit lost, if we had big numbers e.g 30 to 50 people racing it might have a good purpose, but the classes are to small otherwise.

I'll keep beating the drum about the success handicap system to level out the field so we have more people fighting in the championship, it means we can't have 3 drivers that completely dominate, it gives people who have bad races chances to go and have good races in the sprint, and makes the faster drivers work harder in the sprint race to gather good points, rather than demolitioning back through the field as we see every week, it will also promote good racing as it won't simply mean that the faster guys will be more level with the rest of the field meaning that those in the mid to back of the field will be racing them at their pace, as the fast guys might start at the back of the grid but they are still going to have the same pace they had in the feature race so you'll end up with a similar result like the feature race before that sprint.

Some are saying its not puritst to have success handicapping, but it's something used in lots of real world motorsport, so what you're really saying is, this isn't F1, which last time I checked is a completely different game anyway (and available for purchase if you want to play it) and something GT Sport will never be as its more about other racing series like GTs, Touring Cars, Prototypes and normal cars ect.


on a side note back in the day we used this big ass scoring system...
A points system we used in 2014 for a MAZDA TC league on GT6

Position:1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th11th12th13th14th15th
Feature Pts10080706458403632282420161284
@Delaney Also I think the rating system needs a clear out, the drivers not active shouldn't be listed, or should be separated out as they aren't relevant to the league anymore most of them as they've not taken part for 2 years, perhaps there needs to be a rule of 6 months or something since last active.
 
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Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Of cause this works best, if there are a fixed Tier system, but We do not have that and We are not going to have that. The rather special thing in that season, was that SNS suddenly was way faster than before. In the season's before this, he was battling with BL99DY and me and suddenly he was able to compete with the very best.

I've had a look at the pointssystem. How does this look to You?
View attachment 100154

But what if We have two room's with fx. 11 and 10 participants?
So your sticking with open tier then, ok.

Right now firstly what you've put there well the league has now reached 11 sign ups so theres no need to worry about a 8 or 10 driver points system and its unlikely that 12 will need to be considered in the event of just 1 tier,
I think making plans in the event for only 13, 14 & 15 drivers should be the main focus now (as 16 is already there as we all know).

The thing is if we end up with 15, 14 or 13 then sticking to the main formula of the semi pro points that we used over the previous seasons I feel would be the best thing to do, when you start changing the amount of points on offer for 1st, 2nd and 3rd like you've put for 14 drivers or less and so on, then your bringing in new potential issues.

If we somehow get 12 drivers or less then yes a change probably needs to be made to points given to the first 3 and the rest, but 13 - 16 drivers and sticking to 22, 18 & 15 for 1st, 2nd & 3rd has to be the best way forward, as I certainly don't think it would be a bad thing to potentially see a slightly bigger points gap from 4th to 5th, 5th to 6th etc to make this work.
As don't we want to reward drivers that drive there arses off and finish in the top 5 of a race, also by doing that it drastically reduces the advantage of a driver that decides to take a dive in the feature to pick up a win in the sprint.

So @Delaney for 13/14 or 15 drivers still using semi pro points as the foundation:
15 drivers: 22,18,15,13,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 (12 points is taken out)
14 drivers: 22,18,15,13,11,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 (12 & 10 is taken out)
13 drivers: 22,18,15,13,11,9,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 (12, 10 & 8 is taken out)

That would be the best way to help reduce the advantage of those that choose to abuse the reverse grid sprint, if you stick to a format where 4th and every position lower is just separated by 1 point (when you have the option to make it bigger) then you'll likely won't be able to nullify the 'feature race dive'.

But this may all be irrelevant anyway if the signs up continue at there current rate.:LOL:

Moving on with what to do in the event we have 2 tiers and a uneven split like 11 & 10.

The league simply has to match the points given out to the amount of drivers in tier/room 1, so using 11 & 10 as the example - even though theres just 10 drivers in tier 2 points would be given go down to 11th, so 10th and last in this instance would get 2 points but should there be another sign up during the season they would slot into Tier 2 and be the 11th driver and whoever finished 11th would get 1 point.

So it wouldn't require a change really, but if the league does start of with 2 tiers and its a even split then the numbers have to be locked in for tier 1, basically you can't add more drivers to tier 1 even if you got several sign ups after round 1, simply as it would screw with whatever points system we would have in place.

Sure you can still have people join after round 1 and even if there was 3 or 4 they would have to go into tier 2 however you couldn't then move 2 drivers upto tier 1, as it will screw up the points system in place.

If we somehow end up with around 30 drivers then the problem is pretty much solved, but anything from 20 to 26 and potential bad decisions could be made. (as in whatever the co-ords decide in that instance might not work or backfire, as you can't plan for every possibility)
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
on a side note back in the day we used this big ass scoring system...
A points system we used in 2014 for a MAZDA TC league on GT6

Position:1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th11th12th13th14th15th
Feature Pts10080706458403632282420161284

Jesus Ash, I imagine Delaney will react like this to seeing that points system ;):
Related image
Seeing first get a 100 and 15th getting 4!:ROFLMAO:

Though I will say that's definitely a very different & interesting points system that was used back then Ash.

I'll keep beating the drum about the success handicap system to level out the field so we have more people fighting in the championship, it means we can't have 3 drivers that completely dominate, it gives people who have bad races chances to go and have good races in the sprint, and makes the faster drivers work harder in the sprint race to gather good points, rather than demolitioning back through the field as we see every week, it will also promote good racing as it won't simply mean that the faster guys will be more level with the rest of the field meaning that those in the mid to back of the field will be racing them at their pace, as the fast guys might start at the back of the grid but they are still going to have the same pace they had in the feature race so you'll end up with a similar result like the feature race before that sprint.

Some are saying its not puritst to have success handicapping, but it's something used in lots of real world motorsport, so what you're really saying is, this isn't F1, which last time I checked is a completely different game anyway (and available for purchase if you want to play it) and something GT Sport will never be as its more about other racing series like GTs, Touring Cars, Prototypes and normal cars ect.
A 'success handicap' will always be a controversial issue lol, you know my stance and I don't agree with it, but I do understand the point of view and where your coming from.

For me when its come to the sprint races, yes normally I can make my way through the field (as you have as well in the past Ash) however its not normally the case that the faster drivers that start at the back do the equivalent of this:
Image result for hulk out of my way peasants gif
:ROFLMAO:

When I won sprint races from the back normally I don't get to the front until near the end of those races, (like last 5 mins)
Theres been plenty of occasions where I've had to drive my arse off to gain positions in the sprint, I mean I've lost count the times I've battled with Delaney and he's successfully keeps me at bay for a good chuck of time, sure I may find a way past him in the end but its never easy. (which is the way it should be)

I think the key thing we have to remember is since Season 7 this league has had a average of around 8 drivers in races, so for the faster drivers in the feature of course its not as difficult to get to the front in the sprint, but this season we've already got 11 drivers and with the likelihood of either a near/full 1 room lobby or 2 tiers which would be at least 10 drivers in both and a less spread of pace in both.

So whoever does finish at the front in the feature will have an extremely tough fight on there hands to get to the front of the sprint, (unless the field ahead of them part like the red sea in front of them lol) and besides have you seen the calendar Ash - all 4 of those circuits this season don't exactly offer many overtaking chances.
 

TubbyPhantom

Formula 3 Reserve Driver
Dec 2, 2018
216
324
Just incase your wondering co-ords, this is probably what Tubby is referencing to:


And quite frankly it is ridiculous, Nova - SNS - Cpt JJ finished 1st, 2nd & 3rd in the overall standings. (SNS was actually 2nd overall after Cpt JJ got a pen after the final round)

Yet all 3 are champions according to this, there was only 2 tiers but 4 champions - which makes this look pretty silly and a mockery of what it means to be a champion, sure Nova was the champion that season, however SNS & Cpt JJ were clearly 'elite' drivers in there own right as shown by the end of the season and shouldn't have been eligible for a Pro or Semi Pro championship.
But SNS and Cpt JJ were runner up and 3rd at the end of the day which is still a very good achievement but you don't get credited a championship for doing that.

(If you did I'd be a '5 time' champion here.:ROFLMAO:)

At least with Meg1s who was around 12th overall, he was in tier 2 for most of the season and could actually legitimately claim in a way to be the tier 2 champion of S6, but he was racing in the top tier for a couple rounds as well, (which you could argue should make him ineligible for tier 2 champion) as in the end only 3 drivers actually raced in tier 2 for all 8 rounds.

Either way I do agree with Tubby something like this should never happen again, if we have 2 tiers this season stick to them and have the tier 1/overall champion and the tier 2 champion.
Absolutely spot on @Wobbuffet. I'm rubbish at highlighting former posts and I'm glad your here to do that for me, that was exactly what I was referring to.
 

Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
2,611
1,732
Absolutely spot on @Wobbuffet. I'm rubbish at highlighting former posts and I'm glad your here to do that for me, that was exactly what I was referring to.
It was actually me, that pushed for that to happen (big surprise right?) I wanted to test if this was doable, but You are right, it doesn't work unless We have much more sign ups (more or less 4 full Tier/rooms).

Are You two signing up for this season Tubby?
 
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TubbyPhantom

Formula 3 Reserve Driver
Dec 2, 2018
216
324
It was actually me, that pushed for that to happen (big surprise right?) I wanted to test if this was doable, but You are right, it doesn't work unless We have much more sign ups (more or less 4 full Tier/rooms).

Are You two signing up for this season Tubby?
I'm 50/50 at the moment, been enjoying the daily races in gr3/4 for the last week, and I'm not a big fan of mx5 but I'm going to be on with gaz thought the day as it's my week off so will see how I feel about it. Gaz has the design done in case we do sign up.
 
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Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
2,611
1,732
As for the DR I briefly mentioned above well going into it, when I think of a DR system theres no magic formula for it, though if I was to rate drivers from past and present its wouldn't be simple though as I have raced against majority here at some point and have seen the nearly all the other in some of the seasons I didn't compete in, but if it was on driver pace then for example the 3 fastest drivers these leagues have seen were: Stevegaming (S6), Jamie995 (S1) & West408 (S1).

Now that's just my opinion, but I do have a good foundation for that as Steve for example, I've seen him finish 5th overall in Europe in the manufacturers series not to long ago, Jamie also is a extremely fast driver who I've seen top of daily race leaderboards before, those 2 are a bit clear of everyone else (and personally I would've like to see those 2 race against each other) with 3rd I picked West because he was able to keep Jamie honest in a few races which is no mean feat, but the likes of Nova (S6), Browneskiii & Solenx (S1) would be very close to West as well.
Then just a bit below that I would put Hollowdene (S2), Ashracer, Hasnain & Myself, that would be for me the top 10 in outright pace.

The thing is though out of that driver pace top 10, 7 of them are 1 season wonders with one of them only racing for a couple rounds, sure you can rate their pace but if any of them came back then that's where you have to consider and factor in past results.

Jamie back in S1 won the championship & did the clean sweep and that has to carry a lot of weight even to this day considering the competition back then, but then you have Ash who's just won his 4th championship here (the most of any) that without doubt catapults him in any DR system/spreadsheet, most of the other drivers who I mentioned above who where very fast but didn't actually win the championship that season or win races and disappear after 1 season have to drop down the DR, as it wouldn't be fair to those who have stuck around and achieved things over the seasons.

The thing is we have the stats and we can now also properly gauge drivers by what they achieved in there time here, its not the drivers of the present's problem if there achieving more then the drivers of the past, as like a football saying goes 'you can only beat what's in front of you.'
Seasons 1 & 6 were without doubt probably featured the fastest drivers in those seasons in our league history, but winning the championship & races have to have the same value.

If I had to give a DR of sorts (factoring in pace as well) my top 3 in no particular order would be: Ash, Jamie & myself.
Rest of the top 10 (again in no particular order): Bl99dy, Hasnain, Hollowdene, Meg1s, Nova, TubbyPhantom, SolidNinjaSnake.
The thing is the likes of Delaney & Gareth Kirk, you guys ain't far away from that list as you've done plenty of races and have got and achieved between them a mix of poles, wins, podiums & FL's to there name, but it wouldn't be enough to displace previous champions even if they did just one season.

Championships have to carry a lot of weight in the DR, and even finishing Runner up in a championship is still worth something. (which I believe most of those drivers in the rest of the top 10 list have done at some point)

But this all just my opinion, I'm sure everyone has there own opinion on how drivers past & present stack up against each other here, I think whatever future avenue you want to pursue Delaney with the DR spreadsheet it won't be perfect and will always be up for debate and maybe even contentious, but I think if all the co-ords and senior drivers put there heads together we could find a agreeable middle ground for us all.
We can always discuss how the DR should be. I do not claim, that what I've made is perfect.

What I do in calculating this is.
  • First I use the average results from each season. It's simply a calculation of Your results, divided with the number of races, that You have done. A DNS does not count. A DNF count as a last place. This can be found in "statistics" in the results sheet.
  • This is then divided by the number of participants in the season and multiplied by the number of drivers in the DR system. This happen to place the season's result in the big picture.
  • All seasons (that the driver has taken part in) is then averaged to give the final result.
  • Each season a person is NOT taking part after having done so, he will have his DR (for the round not taken part in) added 1. His final results is still averaged though.
  • When used in TT's the TT-result count as a full season and is averaged in too. That is why Your previous results can better (or worsen) Your final place.
So that is why Jamie has gone from a 2.09 to now being a 6.59.

Ash has had some very good results and some not so good with his DR varying from 37.95 down to 6.39 and back to 45.0 and his average now being 27.13. Thereby threatening his Elite driver status. But with results in the 40-45 range he actually should only be a PRO driver.

One could argue, that We should maybe only count results from the last year or 5-6 series, but that would actually only worsen fx. Ash's status. Because I still want to keep the previous participants in here for comparison.

And at the end of the day, it's also a question of time and skill on my part. There are limits to what I can figure out doing in Google Sheets
 
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Ashracer2011

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jan 14, 2014
927
455
We can always discuss how the DR should be. I do not claim, that what I've made is perfect.

What I do in calculating this is.
  • First I use the average results from each season. It's simply a calculation of Your results, divided with the number of races, that You have done. A DNS does not count. A DNF count as a last place. This can be found in "statistics" in the results sheet.
  • This is then divided by the number of participants in the season and multiplied by the number of drivers in the DR system. This happen to place the season's result in the big picture.
  • All seasons (that the driver has taken part in) is then averaged to give the final result.
  • Each season a person is NOT taking part after having done so, he will have his DR (for the round not taken part in) added 1. His final results is still averaged though.
  • When used in TT's the TT-result count as a full season and is averaged in too. That is why Your previous results can better (or worsen) Your final place.
So that is why Jamie has gone from a 2.09 to now being a 6.59.

Ash has had some very good results and some not so good with his DR varying from 37.95 down to 6.39 and back to 45.0 and his average now being 27.13. Thereby threatening his Elite driver status. But with results in the 40-45 range he actually should only be a PRO driver.

One could argue, that We should maybe only count results from the last year or 5-6 series, but that would actually only worsen fx. Ash's status. Because I still want to keep the previous participants in here for comparison.

And at the end of the day, it's also a question of time and skill on my part. There are limits to what I can figure out doing in Google Sheets
I'm not really bothered about the ratings, I think whatever system you use will always have its pro's and con's, its more about counting people who no longer take part as its irrelevant info really if they've not race in a couple of years, they're positions should be hind or removed from the main table, you can leave there data in the background if you wish.

The thing with the system however is the more races you participate in the worse your rating will be, unless you always win, given that the proportion of rating is far greater for a smaller class of data, which is a bit objectively defeating for those who take part in every season.


Ideally the system should take into account how many, each result achieved and give you a points average across your AOR Career. The better your points average the better the driver you would say. But that system also needs to take into account that the more races completed the smaller the percentage each result is worth, for example to move up the list in the current system I would have to finish first in the next 100 races probably as for every race i complete the percentage goes from the first race being 10% to the last race being worth 0.0001% value in the points system. so it makes no actual difference anymore so it's a scale like the law of diminishing returns.
 
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