PS4 - AOR GTSL S11 - CONSTRUCTORS CHALLENGE #1 - Rd.4 Gr.4 @ Laguna Seca | ApexOnlineRacing.com

PS4 AOR GTSL S11 - CONSTRUCTORS CHALLENGE #1 - Rd.4 Gr.4 @ Laguna Seca


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Wobbuffet

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May 20, 2016
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This is scary. I find my self agreeing with Wobbie more and more. Is it because I have changed or is it Wobbie finally seeing things my way? I don’t know, so for now I’ll leave it hanging there.
:LOL:
I'd say its just one of those strange & rare occurrences Delaney.

But really on the Citroen OP matter I have to agree with You completely Wobbie. The Renault and Honda's are deffo faster than the Citroen and the tire wear is more or less the same on the Honda and the Citroen. And the fuel doesn't "weigh" that much round here. I calculated at some point that the difference is only 2-3 sec's in a full race and with pit stops taking 20 sec. just for tires, the fuel doesn't make much difference.

Car \ Performance areaFuelTiresPace
Citroen************
Honda************
Renault*************
Mercedes*********
Apparently Wobbie was better at extracting the pace of the car, than the rest of us. One of the benefits of one-stopping here was that You were less likely to having to battle other people, whereas people doing the three stop would definitely have a LOT of overtake's, potentially slowing them down.

I think nearly all cars, could do the one-stop in Feature. According to my calculations, with my abilities, the one stop was just as fast as the two-stop, but way better than the three-stop. But that is based on an uninterrupted race. As soon as You end in a battle, You’ll loose time. If You go of, well obviously You’ll loose time. I chose the one-stop out of curiosity and because it should give me a good chance, of a boring race with no battles. And that is what You want, if you want to have a chance of winning or being up there, when Your not fast enough on outright pace. I just couldn't keep it on the black stuff. I was ok till 5-6 laps before the end.
I've now looked through the feature and Defiant also in the Dodge one stopped as well (as he said above) however there were a couple other drivers that no stopped the sprint other then those already known.

See this is the thing of course we all want things to be close and all cars to be fair to all drivers but in a series like this its impossible, the simple reality is that the overall performance of our cars will vary from track to track - Laguna Seca for example isn't exactly a temple of speed and can be hard on tyres and that's going to disadvantage some cars, yet you have to believe the next Gr.4 round at RBR will be different and will disadvantage different cars.

Basically I'll keep on playing the same tune 'different horses for different courses'.
 

HRacingGreen

S12 AOR PS4 GP2 Champion
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Jan 30, 2015
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Don't really have much to say to be honest, Citroen was unbeatable on strategy again, and then the race craft in the Sprint Race was appalling. Unnecessary fights, getting pushed wide, getting caught in other people's crashes. Just frustrating, and considering the gap at the end, it absolutely cost me a chance at the win. I know the sprint is meant to be crazy but sometimes people lose their heads when they have more than 1 car around them.

I know cars will be stronger at different tracks, but its annoying to be slapped up 2 weeks in a row to because my cars actually use their fuel and tyres you know? A no-stop Sprint is a ****-take in my opinion.

Anyway, rant out the way, focus on team-oriented driving for next week in ILC, and then back at it again. Gonna need a GP2-esque second half of the season to win the title from here. Like I said in the party, if I keep losing Feature Races I'm never closing the gap. And the charge starts at Spa in a car thats notoriously bad in a straight-line. Brilliant.
 

Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
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Mar 12, 2016
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Don't really have much to say to be honest, Citroen was unbeatable on strategy again, and then the race craft in the Sprint Race was appalling. Unnecessary fights, getting pushed wide, getting caught in other people's crashes. Just frustrating, and considering the gap at the end, it absolutely cost me a chance at the win. I know the sprint is meant to be crazy but sometimes people lose their heads when they have more than 1 car around them.

I know cars will be stronger at different tracks, but its annoying to be slapped up 2 weeks in a row to because my cars actually use their fuel and tyres you know? A no-stop Sprint is a ****-take in my opinion.

Anyway, rant out the way, focus on team-oriented driving for next week in ILC, and then back at it again. Gonna need a GP2-esque second half of the season to win the title from here. Like I said in the party, if I keep losing Feature Races I'm never closing the gap. And the charge starts at Spa in a car thats notoriously bad in a straight-line. Brilliant.
You could of course just acknowledge, that Wobbie was better than You to navigate the traffic. In the end it was less than 6 sec in FR and 2,5 in SP separating You.
I just think it was amazing, to see 3 different pit/tire strategies being used in the FR. That tell me, that We did something right here.
Why is it suddenly unfair, that it is possible to one-stop the Sprint? When I can almost beat Wobbie with a two-stop, it tells me that this is close to perfect. Remember that this was a track with high tire wear and looong pits
 
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Delaney

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I've been analyzing a bit on the data from the Feature Race. I looked at tire wear and fuel consumption for all cars after 6 lap and matched it with pit strategy.

CarDriver% Tire left after 6 lapsFuel left after 6 lapsExtra fuel?Pit laps
Lancer
HRacingGreen8075L8, L17
CitroenRagna_Kagari8577L12
HondaCaaalyy8376L13
ToyotaJT_Racing8273FL9, L17
JaguarJutngo8077L8, L17
RenaultManx8875FL13
ViperCommunist_Minion7574FL8, L16
LexusBankai_Bullett7575L7, L13, L19
HondaWedgybo7876L12
MercedesRoninGT-Delaney7776L13
JaguarBL99DY-NINE8077L7, L16
ViperDefiant1958678L3
RenaultMegamonki8876L13
PorscheGKRT_Pinkiiboii8874FL8, L17
LexusLee7075FL7, L14, L20

This is my calculated race times - not including traffic, off's and other more or less self-inflicted stupidities:
Rd4 GT4 FR analyse.PNG


Findings:
  • First of all, as far as I found, only 5 cars had to refuel, so the fuel issue was mitigated nicely by most people. The only one to really surprise was Manx having to refuel.
  • The tire wear and fuel consumption on HRacingGreen's Lancer was definitely higher than on the Citroen of Ragna_Wobbie_Kagari, BUT as they were on different strategies, that is to be expected. The Citroen does look better on the tires when comparing to most of the other cars one-stopping (Honda 2% more, Renault 3% better, Mercedes 7% more). The fuel is the same as the Honda, Jaguar, Mercedes (+/- 1%)
  • Driving style is much more important when it come to tire wear - Just look at The two Honda's, Vipers and Lexus's. A lot can be gained here.
  • But some cars seem to be more challenging on the tires - Lancer, Jaguar, Viper, Lexus and Mercedes. The Renault is in a class of it's own, but the Citroen seems to be quite good too.
  • After 6 laps (23% of the race) You should be on at least 76.9% to one-stop, even though some of us had less left, We made it anyway.
  • The fuel consumption is much closer together, most likely because We only do, what We need to do.
  • Some cars does seem to be a bit more challenging, when it come to fuel consumption - Toyota, Viper(?) and Porsche. A few has a small advantage - Citroen & Jaguar(?)
  • If my pit calculation is anything to go by, it was a mistake to three-stop, as it 10 sec. slower than the two-stop and 8 second slower than one-stop. On top of that is the fact, that the more often You pit, the higher the risk of getting caught out behind other drivers, as You have to be faster to make up for the lost time in the pit. With an effective pit-delta of 20 sec (just with tires), You have to be really fast. If You add having to re-fuel also, then it's just not a viable solution.
But all this only (mostly) apply to this track. Of course the general differences still stand, but the effect on the race is different. When We come to Red Bull Ring the picture will be much different. The RBR has fewer turns and longer straights, which in theory should mean less tire wear and less fuel consumption. Straight line speed will be more important than here. So predictions could be, that the Renault's, Honda's and probably the Citroen will not have it as easy as here. Jaguar/Viper/Lancer could be the faster cars and Lancer, Mercedes/Lexus could at least have an easier time.

I hope this brings a bit more facts to the discussions. You are welcome to disagree all You like.

Some people have been moaning a bit about their car not being fast enough, using too much fuel or eating it's tires, BUT remember who chose the car! You knew the tracks, the conditions and could have chosen another car. You had amble time to test a selection of cars and choose the one best for You. We (the Coords) has discussed, if We banning some cars would be a solution and We agree, that We do not want to do that. It's up to You to do Your assessments, chose and live with it.
 
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Bankai_Bullett

F1 Senna Equivalent
Apr 4, 2015
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You said the Lexus could 2-stop.

Lol no.

You can fire your own laptimes at us all you like, but I'm telling you it wasn't happening on the RM and the RH was so poor that it wasn't worth the effort.

I was as smooth as I could possibly be, no wheelspin and very little understeer... car STILL ate it's tyres.

I think it's a fundamental issue with the actual cars tbh
We have real world cars competing against GT built cars... like the Citroen... and I'm of the opinion that the GT cars have an built-in advantage.
It just so happens that the Citroen seems to be the most extreme case in the league right now, regardless of Ragna's abilities.
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
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The thing is these arguments and discontent over fuel and tyre wear has happened in the past and is nothing new, just to take a short trip back through time.

In season 2 it was a Gr.3 season - the main gripe about that season was fuel differences between cars.
In season 4 it was a Gr.4 season - the main gripe about that season was tyre wear between cars.

And shock horror as the league has combined both those car classes for this season, both fuel and tyre wear are the gripes.

As I said before I can totally understand that people want tyre & fuel parity between all cars at all tracks, but if that was the case then that would just raise other issues people will mention, like differences in straight line speed and grip/car handling through corners.

You only have to look through the current BoP to see that certain cars have a BHP advantage and weight advantage over others, you could then make the case it isn't fair for example how: the Gr.4 Renault has nearly 80bhp less then the Gr.4 Lexus, or on the flipside: the Gr.4 Renault is nearly 700lbs lighter then the Gr.4 Lexus.

But the funny thing is it turns out the Gr.4 Honda which weighs 50lbs heavier then the Lexus, but has as good tyre wear as the Citroen at Laguna Seca, (the only heavier cars currently are the Nissan, Dodge & Mercedes) so this fact should tell you something in itself.

So when looking at the BoP facts and figures like these, people will never be happy with how the BoP and cars are done for Gr.3 & Gr.4 cars, of course we want things to be 'fair', but the reality is these cars all have to have different kind of handling behaviours, characteristics, drivetrains and different power and torques.
And as a result its impossible to have 25+ different 'constructors' and give them all similar performance, but if you did that then surely that would make it all pointless and you might as well just make all the cars the same and have a one make series all the time.

(which is the only time when things are truly 'fair & equal' and seasons like those I enjoy more for the record)

I know cars will be stronger at different tracks, but its annoying to be slapped up 2 weeks in a row to because my cars actually use their fuel and tyres you know? A no-stop Sprint is a ****-take in my opinion.
If your talking about the feature races then I certainly don't think I 'slapped' you 2 weeks in a row due to fuel and tyres alone, at Sainte-Croix yeah I won by over 10 seconds and gained 6 secs during the first stops, but I was the faster driver in that race - in the middle stint in that race I was on average over half a second a lap quicker then you.

As for the Laguna feature, it was only 6 seconds and it could've have been a hell of alot closer as you got held up in your middle stint and had one bad lap on your final stint, without that the final margin it would have been very close.

But yes tyres and fuel of course played a key part in that race, but I still had to be mistake free, save fuel and set the lap times to do enough for the 1 stop to beat the 2 stop.
Now you'll get no arguments from me that on you had the pace on Thursday night, but unfortunately for you strategy and car characteristics stopped the faster driver from winning which is nothing new, (not just in online racing but real world racing as well) its happened plenty of times before and will happen in the future again no doubt.

Anyway its happened to me in the past as well so I can understand your frustration, but even when it does happens I don't really get annoyed about it as I know first hand they still have to execute and get the job done.

Besides your not seriously telling me in all your years of racing that you've never been the slower driver and won a race because of strategy & different car characteristics?;)

With the no stop sprint argument, the thing is drivers have no stopped sprint races in this format before in other seasons in the past, so its nothing new and normally it doesn't work but this time it did.

(Lastly just to clarify HRG, I gave an agree to your comment as I agreed in general with it - like the sprint race and last paragraph)
 
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HRacingGreen

S12 AOR PS4 GP2 Champion
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Jan 30, 2015
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You could of course just acknowledge, that Wobbie was better than You to navigate the traffic
Dude really? I was cautious as anything, didn't make over-aggressive moves or anything, but then 3 cars all clatter into one another in front of me, one of which stops on track and I'm left with nowhere to go. I could see the racing, it was clumsy, people were being pushed off and getting over-confident. I wasn't perfect in that race, but I didn't make errors that took out other people.


As for tyres and fuel, I wish I'd never brought it up lmao. Unfortunately, its clear the combination of a fucking ridiculously long pit animation at this track, combined with stark differences in tyre and fuel requirements between cars meant some thing that is, in fairness, a bit of an issue became a huge thing that decided races. Were we at pretty much any other circuit, the issue may not have been so big (as we saw at R1, I stupidly attempted a 1 stop and got mugged).

On a personal note, I think it has frustrated me more this week because this title battle is the same as I've had with jamie-995 in the past, its just constant exchanging of 1st and 2nd places. So, obviously, when I'm losing ground it gets to me more. I don't mean to come across as having a go at co-ordinators because the differing strategies and races make for very exciting stuff, and is a welcome change from all the "everyone pits here and here and its a time-trial competition" of some other GTSport and PCars leagues *cough* ILR s *cough*. Spa will be an interesting on, I'm expecting big things from the Mercedes guys, and I'm gonna need some serious magic.
 
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Delaney

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Mar 12, 2016
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“Spa will definitely be an interesting one, I'm expecting big things from the Mercedes guys”:eek:
 
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Wobbuffet

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May 20, 2016
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On a personal note, I think it has frustrated me more this week because this title battle is the same as I've had with jamie-995 in the past, its just constant exchanging of 1st and 2nd places. So, obviously, when I'm losing ground it gets to me more. I don't mean to come across as having a go at co-ordinators because the differing strategies and races make for very exciting stuff, and is a welcome change from all the "everyone pits here and here and its a time-trial competition" of some other GTSport and PCars leagues *cough* ILR *cough*. Spa will definitely be an interesting one, I'm expecting big things from the Mercedes guys, and I'm gonna need some serious magic.
No worries HRG I get it and understand your thoughts on this, speaking about our league here the co-ords have done a fantastic job overall I have to say, sure I've had my disagreements shall we say on certain things over time here.

But the one thing that makes this place unique is they always find ways to mix it up season to season and keep it as fresh as possible, it would be to easy just to do one particular thing with a uninspiring race format and stick with it till the end of the time, but they have taken risks on new things and made changes when necessary.

Normally what they come up with for a season is solid, but of course theres the odd season that wasn't/isn't well received but thats par of the course and the risk they take, but the effort the co-ords put in to give these opportunities in the first place is something to be appreciated.

A quick full history lesson just for the new drivers here, since the beginning of the league these are the car classes and one make series that have been done before:

S1. Gr.2 (2016 cars)
S2. Gr.3
S3. Xmas cup (multiple classes)
S4. Gr.4
S5. Gr.X - Red Bull Jr
S6. Gr.X - Super Formula - (had a 2nd season on sundays)
S7. Gr.2 (2008 cars)
S8. N500 - Porsche 911
S9. Xmas cup (multiple classes)
S10. N200 - Mazda TC
S11. Gr.3 & Gr.4 *current

So as people can see the league has certainly offered plenty of variety over time, and I imagine we're in store for something different and new next season.
 
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Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
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Ok I think I might have got a bit sidetracked the past couple days, but might as well do my race report now.

Qualy: 3rd - I wasn't sure what time would be pole but when I saw Wedgy go 1:27.6 while on my first lap, I knew the game was up for pole as when I practiced my qualy runs I was only able to get into the high 27's, either way I managed to just do a 27 and it was good enough for 3rd and I was quite happy all things considered.

Feature: 1st - I had a good start and was able to get ahead of Wedgy for 2nd and was even able to have a go around the outside of HRG at the hairpin, but I had to settle in behind him.

After that the first third of the race was about trading times with HRG, in general the first 3 laps he pulled a bit of a lead over me (just under 2 secs) the next couple laps the gap stabilised and laps 6 - 8 saw me get the gap down to about a second, HRG then pitted and knew at that point he was 2 stopping so the next several laps would be crucial in this phase of the race as I was one stopping.

I managed to do good lap times though and when I made my stop I came out about 9 seconds behind him, at this stage of the race I knew I had to get that gap down before he made his final stop and I gave myself the target of getting to about 5 seconds behind him, if I wanted to give myself a very good chance of winning the race.

Once again in general I did quick solid laps and as HRG made his last stop I did indeed get the gap down to 5 seconds, after he exited the pits I saw I had a lead of around 18 seconds over him.

At this point I knew that gap was quickly going to get smaller and smaller but I knew I just had to focus mainly on setting solid quick laps with no mistakes, which I did and in the end I won by about 6 seconds.

Sprint: 1st - Considering everyone knew that stopping was pretty costly I was expecting at least several other drivers to not stop and knew if I was to get a top result I would have to make a lot of passes.

I gained a couple places early on but like always in these sprint things can get pretty manic, and at one point early on I was part of a 6 car pack charging downhill exiting the corkscrew all together. (there was 2 groups of cars 3 wide lol)

Anyway through all this madness and next few laps I eventually began to move my way up the field and with that and a mix of stops starting lap 7 I was upto 3rd.

I then caught upto Meg1s who had a slow exit from T4 and I had to have a go around the outside at T5, as we went round the corner there was enough space between us but suddenly on my screen Meg1s's car moved up into mine and side bumped me off the track. (at the time I thought it was a lag moment and my replay confirmed this)

Either way though as I recovered it cost me multiple positions and seconds, I was then in the middle of 3 wide with JT having a go down the inside of me at T6, he got ahead but unfortunately for him he went wide and off, which allowed me to stay 7th but at the end of that lap once again a few more drivers pitted and this put me back up to 3rd.

I then caught upto Lee but he then pitted and so I was now 2nd sandwiched between the 2 Renaults, Monkeymeg was leading by a couple seconds and I knew if I wanted to win the race I would have to catch and get past him as quick as possible as I knew there tyres would likely be a lot better then mine and any pace advantage I had over him would be neutralised.

It took me a couple laps but on lap 11 I properly caught upto him and we had a good fair battle in S1and I was able to get ahead exiting T4, after that I knew I had to try pull as much of a gap as possible as Delaney who moved up to 3rd as well was only a couple of seconds behind on a lot fresher tyres.

I managed to pull out a small lead over the next lap and for the final lap the gap was pretty stable, and with no dramas in the last lap I won the race.

Looking back at that night, obviously I was delighted to do the double but of course strategy played its part (as we all spoken quite a lot about above) in both races for me.
With the sprint and getting pushed off track as I said I did have an idea it was lag at the time and just a case of wrong place, wrong time & just bad lack basically, naturally I don't blame Meg1s for this but it was nearly very costly to my race, but thankfully for me I was still able to comeback and win.

Anyway just want to say well done to HRG on his feature podium and pole and to Delaney for his podium, but very well done to Manx for getting a double podium a very good night for him it was, and special mention for Monkeymeg, I saw what happened to you on the final lap of the sprint - that was unlucky as you drove a very solid race and did deserve a podium yourself.

Ok I guess that's that and see you all in just under a couple of weeks hopefully.
 

Defiant195

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Jan 20, 2014
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Just for the record the last car (Apart from the Z4) I would pick would be the Viper. I just wanted a team mate. Some cars are better than others but it is nearly always track dependent.
 
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