PC - Discussion about track limits | ApexOnlineRacing.com

PC Discussion about track limits


Yorkie065

SMS Representative
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AOR Commentator
Jan 19, 2014
1,633
2,544
I'm not going to jump into the discussion people have been having here and address the points directly as such, done it too many times on this topic as it comes up every season and it's basically all the same points being raised with the same topics. Most of, if not all can simply go back to 'the rules have been there for a very long time, they have been adjusted over time to suit each game whilst maintaining clear guidelines and fairness, and the rules are the same for everyone.'

Yes, inquiries could be done / handled a little better, but other than paying a couple of people to take 30 hours of their week watching every driver in a replay for a single split, I don't really have any other suggestions for solutions. It's not a fun job, it takes a ton of time so only a mad man (or woman) would volunteer to do it week in week out.

So, below, I'm going to mention a number of things that you can do to help you avoid penalties through exceeding track limits:
1- Practice. Not everyone has time for it, but even taking 5-10 minutes to drive a few laps, watch replays back in chase cam after you think you may have exceeded the white lines and then adjust accordingly.
2- Get a sense of the size of your car. This comes hand in hand with 1, but driving in cockpit view for example, you should be able to build up reference or a sense of scale as to how big your car is and where the limit is with that. With Triple Screens, this is much easier as you can run more accurate FOV's in comparison to a single monitor, unless it is big and you're hooked up to a rig, and VR is even better as you have that much wider vision (like triples) and also a greater sense of depth. Having good depth perception, or a general sense of how big your car is, you should be able to get an idea as to how close you're getting to the limits of the track when going through corners.
3- Pay attention to FFB and Audio cues. These come without points 1 and 2, but you should be able to feel when all 4 tyres are on the curb on the inside or exit of a corner through the FFB, which would usually mean that you are extremely close to / on the limit / over the limit. If you pay attention to it, much like the same way with detecting which tyres are spinning, you should be able to feel that. Obviously more expensive, better FFB systems will make it easier. On top of this, you should be able to hear it as well. It may be difficult in a racing situation with other cars around you, but again you should be able to tell which wheels are running the curbs. If you hear it on both sides, again you are going to be extremely close to / on the limit / over the limit of track boundaries.
4- If you're ever in doubt, just lift! You may have not gone over, but you may have gone over, either way, if you lift and clearly show that you tried to give up any potential advantage, you will not be penalised for that breach of track limits. I know it's hard when battling and it can hurt, but surely a half second - 1 second lift to negate an advantage rather than keep your foot in, is better than being put in front of the stewards and receiving a penalty?

Those are all things you can do before an inquiry is made, regardless of your driving view, controller type, driving ability etc. Yes, not everyone is going to be able to put all those above points to use, such as controllers not having FFB or someone not being able to practice, but there's at least 1 or 2 things you can do to avoid getting a penalty. Even in the race itself, if you had no practice, ask those around you "yo, did I cut or extend just then in that corner?". They should be truthful in their response, but at least it shows you're making an effort to avoid breaking the rules.

Also, when an inquiry is made close to the 48 hour limit, those who the inquiry is made against still have the chance to post counter evidence. In the case of track limits, it can be difficult to counter any evidence against you unless you can clearly show that you negated or didn't gain any advantage. If you can't gather counter evidence there and then, put a post up saying you'll be gathering some with an ETA of when you will be posting it, and make sure it is ASAP to avoid inquiries going on beyond the next race.

Either way, prevention is always better than treatment. Do what you can to stay within the rules that are in place and all is gravy.
 

SmokingPuppy841

Really Useful Person
Oct 24, 2016
2,233
832
Show me one of those iRacing examples where the driver is not getting a x1 after some track extending/cutting, maybe we play/watch different games.
I literally get a 1x for mere millimetres.And then you have the oval "how low is to low" issue which only has 1 answer,the same as this debate:practice!
 
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ZAL

Formula 4 Reserve Driver
Feb 14, 2018
93
89
I just wish to add that drivers who are out of track going out of a turn SHOULD NOT, be seen as a cut / penalty. (Hitting sand, example Tidgney / Andrex picture)

This is mainly the only thing I am really frustrated about. Try and see some of the cuts in context to gain or no gain. We are racing ffs, and one should not IMO slow down for a mistake that is clearly out of the track and lost time because of it. And seeing someone receive a cut for being out of the track is wrong!!! Because then I feel like someone is just fast forwarding the replay, sees a cut and add it to the "cut count".

I respect everyone who took their time to investigate Zolder, and there is a lot of passion going on. But we are racing, and mistakes are made during an hour and one should not be penalized for a mistake one did where the driver didnt gain any advantage. This also applies to wheels on whitelines, are we at the point where we need to zoom in to find cuts?

I didn't lose time during Zolder for over pushing out of the track, but I feel really bad for the drivers who received a "cut penalty" for it.

Also, please don't have a competition about sim-cade, sim or whatever. PC2 is what it is and everyone should be able to drive with what they feel is comfortable or feel is correct without anyone talking bad about anyone or coming with arguments to what is faster or not. Respect peoples choice of driving style.

And don't remind of rules, I saw them 100 times reading through this.
 

Tex Wheeler

Formula 4 1st Driver
Feb 13, 2018
155
127
Surprisingly, in the elite tier, a few drivers using cockpit or helmet cam (Me, @N1kmido, @Col.McCoy) were in the lower end of the amount of cuttings. On the other hand, some drivers using roof or chase were in the higher end. :unsure: Indeed, using in car view is no excuse for cutting, although it is a fact, that it should be easier to judge the car's position in track in the exterior views (especially chase cam).

But this is a small sample based on counting, what driving views people use while streaming. Don't draw too much conclusions about that :)
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
@ZAL I agree with you only on the fact that I don't see the point of counting a cut when someone is clearly in the gravel and could not have possibly gained time.
For example, going wide turn 4 with 2 wheels in the gravel will surely not making you fast, not point reporting it IMO.
However, when there is no gravel, going wide can make you gain time and/or taker the corner a lot easier.

And as a lot people said before, a few mistakes are OK of course. But 30 "mistakes" are not (it's just an example).

(Edit: When people are mentioned in the inquiry for something like 4 cuts, it doesn't necessarily mean we're asking for a penalty. It's just to show that we analysed them as well and counted their cuts)
 

Ironik

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jul 20, 2016
1,267
705
@ZAL I agree with you only on the fact that I don't see the point of counting a cut when someone is clearly in the gravel and could not have possibly gained time.
For example, going wide turn 4 with 2 wheels in the gravel will surely not making you fast, not point reporting it IMO.
However, when there is no gravel, going wide can make you gain time and/or taker the corner a lot easier.

And as a lot people said before, a few mistakes are OK of course. But 30 "mistakes" are not (it's just an example).

(Edit: When people are mentioned in the inquiry for something like 4 cuts, it doesn't necessarily mean we're asking for a penalty. It's just to show that we analysed them as well and counted their cuts)
I totally agree with @ZAL and, of course, I disagree with you.
One has to stop saying that a mistake is ok but not 30. A mistake is just that, a mistake !
A mistake is making one losing time why punishing him twice ?

It's like giving someone a penalty because he hit the wall around Bathurst or it's like a tennisman being DQ because he made more than 30 direct errors. This is nonsense.

I understand the reason why AOR is doing this, like you and Andrex said before, but I think this is utterly unfair.
I know this is hard to judge and there is no way knowing for sure besides a long lift. Still, I don't like this.

So, I understand AOR rules and why they're like that but please, stop saying that this is fair and logical. It's not. It's just practical.
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
I totally agree with @ZAL and, of course, I disagree with you.
One has to stop saying that a mistake is ok but not 30. A mistake is just that, a mistake !
A mistake is making one losing time why punishing him twice ?

It's like giving someone a penalty because he hit the wall around Bathurst or it's like a tennisman being DQ because he made more than 30 direct errors. This is nonsense.

I understand the reason why AOR is doing this, like you and Andrex said before, but I think this is utterly unfair.
I know this is hard to judge and there is no way knowing for sure besides a long lift. Still, I don't like this.

So, I understand AOR rules and why they're like that but please, stop saying that this is fair and logical. It's not. It's just practical.
Agreed, I wrote a little too fast: what is not OK in making 30 mistakes, is that it gives too much work for stewards to analyse if they are mistakes making you loose time or if you gained time. As they don't have the manpower to do it, you're by default guilty.
Yes it's practical, and I think it's the fairer that they can provide with the time they have. Granted it's not 100% fair, but we can't do 100% fair.

[Off topic] Btw, although it's a different story than corner cutting (which isn't dangerous), I think mistakes can be punished as well sometimes : For example, if at bathurst someone spin in the mountain 6 times during the race and each time give damage to some car that were following, in my opinion it is something where we can start thinking about a penalty, if you endanger everyone with poor driving. [/Off topic]
 

DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
if your doing 30 mistakes in Elite you should think about going for some extra practice in the future.
Or am i wrong?

Yeah it is wrong to get a penalty for just a "mistake".
But if you're doing just a crazy ammount of "mistakes" should you rly be in one of the highes tiers in AOR?
If lower Tier drivers are safer/cleaner and not much slower?

I guess Elite and Pro aswell are a bit representative for AOR GT3 and pCars 2 GT3 / SMS...
So this driver should be the best driver the community got and they should drive clean/fast/good...
and not doing 30 "mistakes".

Correct me if i'm wrong here.
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
if your doing 30 mistakes in Elite you should think about going for some extra practice in the future.
Or am i wrong?

Yeah it is wrong to get a penalty for just a "mistake".
But if you're doing just a crazy ammount of "mistakes" should you rly be in one of the highes tiers in AOR?
If lower Tier drivers are safer/cleaner and not much slower?

I guess Elite and Pro aswell are a bit representative for AOR GT3 and pCars 2 GT3 / SMS...
So this driver should be the best driver the community got and they should drive clean/fast/good...
and not doing 30 "mistakes".

Correct me if i'm wrong here.
I'm not sure whether I agree or not, but maybe we're beginning to be a little offtopic here ^^
 
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ZAL

Formula 4 Reserve Driver
Feb 14, 2018
93
89
@ZAL I agree with you only on the fact that I don't see the point of counting a cut when someone is clearly in the gravel and could not have possibly gained time.
For example, going wide turn 4 with 2 wheels in the gravel will surely not making you fast, not point reporting it IMO.
However, when there is no gravel, going wide can make you gain time and/or taker the corner a lot easier.

And as a lot people said before, a few mistakes are OK of course. But 30 "mistakes" are not (it's just an example).

(Edit: When people are mentioned in the inquiry for something like 4 cuts, it doesn't necessarily mean we're asking for a penalty. It's just to show that we analysed them as well and counted their cuts)
I don't think we are using the term "mistake" correctly together now, tho. I mean the mistake as legit an mistake, going out of track, losing major time hitting grass or sand, spinning back into track. That as we said, should not be seen as a cut and should not receive a penalty. Not mistake as in steered in too early and got a cut on the inner line :) When doing that over 6 times its ofc not an mistake anymore at that point, as you have not adjusted speed etc in order to avoid doing that mistake again.

I think we all were surprised over the fact that we got so many cuts, and will highly likely be more careful for the next races where it involves these sort of corners.

On the other hand, I was very surprised with the penalties given, someone with 22 cuts got the same penalty as someone with 76 :unsure: What differentiates the guy with 17 cuts to 22 cuts to not getting a DSQ? I guess it was a hard decision to make, and a rare one.
 

ZAL

Formula 4 Reserve Driver
Feb 14, 2018
93
89
if your doing 30 mistakes in Elite you should think about going for some extra practice in the future.
Or am i wrong?

Yeah it is wrong to get a penalty for just a "mistake".
But if you're doing just a crazy ammount of "mistakes" should you rly be in one of the highes tiers in AOR?
If lower Tier drivers are safer/cleaner and not much slower?

I guess Elite and Pro aswell are a bit representative for AOR GT3 and pCars 2 GT3 / SMS...
So this driver should be the best driver the community got and they should drive clean/fast/good...
and not doing 30 "mistakes".

Correct me if i'm wrong here.
I'm going to be honest with you, you need to work on your wording of things. Reading through this thread you sound like a cocky driver who knows everything the best. Not being rude here, and If I am Im sorry, but I think some people might not have enjoyed your comments regarding things. Why tell drivers that they should put in extra practice, or sound like they don't belong in Elite? Just had to put it out there, be a little nicer when mentioning things like this...
 
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Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
I don't think we are using the term "mistake" correctly together now, tho. I mean the mistake as legit an mistake, going out of track, losing major time hitting grass or sand, spinning back into track. That as we said, should not be seen as a cut and should not receive a penalty. Not mistake as in steered in too early and got a cut on the inner line :) When doing that over 6 times its ofc not an mistake anymore at that point, as you have not adjusted speed etc in order to avoid doing that mistake again.
Ok thanks for the clarification, I agree !

About penalties given, I won't comment. Those are hard decisions to take, involving several ppl, and there are usually no perfect decision. So yeah it may not be 100% fair, but I'm sure stewards are doing their best.
 

DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
@ZAL yeah you're right and it takes you max 10-30 min to prove that you didnt gained time and everything is fine.
I guess thats how it works in AOR.

Yeah you're right and i do apoligize if i'm to offensive!!!
My english is bad and i may use words i should not use :eek:...

You guys are way better than i am , no doubt about that!!
In every part of racing and know how.

But AOR is not only about beeing good etc is also a Gentlemans league a bit... you know what i try to imply?
 

Ironik

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jul 20, 2016
1,267
705
@ZAL yeah you're right and it takes you max 10-30 min to prove that you didnt gained time and everything is fine.
I guess thats how it works in AOR.
That's wrong. Andrex said it very clearly : If you made a mistake or not, if you lost time or not, won't make any difference, he'll crush you :D:D

Just a reminder of his words :

And each 'defense' is pathetic! And very insulting to be honest!
"I didn't gain any time" - Firstly, prove it! You went over the lines, and if that wasn't due to a loss of control (I'll cover that in a sec!), then it is 99 out 100, due to you carrying too much speed to keep the car within the track limits = gaining time! End of!

If anyone thinks they can provide a valid excuse for cutting / extending (excluding the valid one of avoiding contact / etc!), then feel free to post it here and make themselves look stupid when I destroy it!
 

ZAL

Formula 4 Reserve Driver
Feb 14, 2018
93
89
@ZAL yeah you're right and it takes you max 10-30 min to prove that you didnt gained time and everything is fine.
I guess thats how it works in AOR.

Yeah you're right and i do apoligize if i'm to offensive!!!
My english is bad and i may use words i should not use :eek:...

You guys are way better than i am , no doubt about that!!
In every part of racing and know how.

But AOR is not only about beeing good etc is also a Gentlemans league a bit... you know what i try to imply?
Yes, if someone reports its easy to remove those mistakes. I just wanted to sound my opinion on those sort of mistakes.

I did by no means say we are better than you? Why are you heating this up? :rolleyes:

Yes, I get what you mean about it being a nice and fair community racing. I think everyone has proven to be both gentleman and really fast. I personally have done some stupid fuckups during the race tho, ill admit that ;) I have enjoyed the great competition and clean racing!
 

Ironik

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jul 20, 2016
1,267
705
Ouuppps, I forgot this part :

"It was the result of a slide/loss of control" - Firstly, prove it! If this is once / twice, then maaaaybe! but you should be adjusting your driving as soon as you realize you are going over the white line!" The limit its not 0, which accommodates for the occasional 'due to loss of control' so they should still be counted!
 
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DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
@Ironik Andrex is not AOR^^ he's a member coordinator and almost a legend xD
But he cant just "crush" you.
So i think you can defend yourself pritty good if you're rly did a mistake and lost time etc.
YOU did defend yourself very good! It took yourself time yeah but you can get away without a punishment if you prove it.

@ZAL nah didnt wanted to heat things up!!!!!
I meant what I said about you guys beeing better than me!!
It was no "childish" provoking xD
You ARE better!!

Yeah races are quiet nice around elite :)
Tracklimits was just a bit too much this race, thats all.
 
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Ironik

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jul 20, 2016
1,267
705
@Ironik Andrex is not AOR^^ he's a member coordinator and almost a legend xD
But he cant just "crush" you.
So i think you can defend yourself pritty good if you're rly did a mistake and lost time etc.
YOU did defend yourself very good! It took yourself time yeah but you can get away without a punishment if you prove it.
Andrex is a coordinator and a member of the steward panel (not in Elite inquiries) , isn't it ?
He is representing AOR then. ;)

Sadly, I watched my video back and I made some editing mistakes hahahaha but well, I don't care anymore to be honest.
We'll see what happen in Pro soon enough I guess :p
 

DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
@Ironik i dont know how they manage the Stewards but i dont think he's involved in his own enquiers so he cant raise one AND punish you.

Pro will not be so hard i guess :unsure: maybe even nothing and only warnings.