PC - Discussion about track limits | ApexOnlineRacing.com

PC Discussion about track limits


N1kmido

F1 Senna Equivalent
Sep 17, 2016
921
908
I just wish to add that drivers who are out of track going out of a turn SHOULD NOT, be seen as a cut / penalty. (Hitting sand, example Tidgney / Andrex picture)

This is mainly the only thing I am really frustrated about. Try and see some of the cuts in context to gain or no gain. We are racing ffs, and one should not IMO slow down for a mistake that is clearly out of the track and lost time because of it. And seeing someone receive a cut for being out of the track is wrong!!! Because then I feel like someone is just fast forwarding the replay, sees a cut and add it to the "cut count".
That's wrong. Andrex said it very clearly : If you made a mistake or not, if you lost time or not, won't make any difference, he'll crush you :D:D
It´s probably better to let @AndrexUK answer this in a more detailed fashion but to make it clear: If you go off, therefore touch the gravel and/or grass and if it is clearly obvious that you don´t gain an advantage, you won´t receive a penalty or warning for it (unless you keep doing it to put other drivers off or danger them in any certain way.) E.G exit of T4 at Zolder, you can´t extend to gain an advantage as the gravel is right there to slow you down. Please stop claiming things like this, it is simply not true.

@ZAL The screenshot of Andrex you´re referring to is a special situation. He was on slicks in wet conditions and he gained an advantage there as it was most likely faster to let the car run straight over the grass than correcting over to the left in those very slippery conditions.
 
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Col.McCoy

F1 Triple Champion
May 26, 2016
849
572
Thanks @Tex Wheeler. I definetely think its harder with the driversview, helmet cam, to drive more cleanly.... thats it is why it is so important to review social races or practises from time to time on tracks you dont know very well..

Once again, what I dont like is not able to defend `myself`. I am not saying I did not cut 8 times, but Im pretty sure I reacted on 1 or two. In the end, I dont care so much, as Im not a driver that will have to fear consequences as I dont show up these lists many times... but I do hope in the future that people that say that others are cutting/extending, they deliver the proof with the exact laps/corners. (As I did with the cases I posted, its always clear and easy for the accused driver to see what lap and look at his own footage for defenses). It is one of the reasons why I record my races and normally when I make a mistake or cut, I comment myself on it acknowledging and normally reacting to give away an advantage if it was not a clear mistake.
 
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Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
Bit of a shame to see the really exciting race at Zolder kinda getting ruined a bit by all these track limits issues. I will admit I'm not particularly good at noticing corner cuts and stuff during commentary as I'm obviously focused on figuring out [occasionally sensible] things to say and controlling the cameras, looking for battles etc. So I didn't really consider during the stream that this would be a problem this bad. But then again, I seem to remember Zolder having had a similar situation back on PCars 1 as well in one of the earlier seasons, and I suppose it's not exactly the easiest track when it comes to these things.

Seems to be a trend that we tend to have one of these big investigations per season pretty much, which definitely isn't fun for the coordinators/stewards to deal with, so hopefully people learn from this so that there won't be a need for another one for a while. Luckily at Bathurst there are walls stopping most of the cutting opportunities, so I guess you will have other things to worry about here haha!
Maybe coordinators could give an official specific reminder when racing on tracks which are know for creating issues with corner cuts.
Something like:
"We'd like to remind you that cutting is not allowed...+ [even if you cut for 2cm] + [even if not on purpose] +etc...
Some other drivers may analyse your race, and raise an inquiry. They are in their right to do so, and are not forced to analyse everyone. If you think other drivers cut and deserve a penalty, you need to raise the inquiry yourself.
If you don't want to spend your day at it, just don't cut ;)
Be attentive as in 1st chicane it is really easy to misjudge it if you didn't practice enough and didn't check your car in replays.
"

I know it's in the rules already, but for tracks like Zolder, it may have prevented all the contestation messages. What do you think ?

(I commented here to not pollute the elite bathurst thread)
 

AEIDOLONE

Formula 4 Test Driver
Feb 7, 2018
71
43
Sorry, didn't read the the whole thread, but just wanted to say that I'm also with @Nagrom. The game should handle the cutting.
Before Patch 4 IIRC, it was a no go. But now they have fixed it. The cutting penalty system is descent.
The AOR extra rules make it just more complicated. For us and for themselves.
 

AndrexUK

3 times PC Project Cars 2 Champion
May 6, 2015
5,791
5,623
The AOR extra rules make it just more complicated
Outside the white line = cut
Inside the white line = no cut

Complicated? Not in the slightest!
More 'wasted'* time for me? No real reason for that to have to happen if ppl respect the rules they agreed too.

*Although it took a lot of my free time to run that investigation, if even 1 person learn to not cut, then that wasn't 'wasted'!
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
@AEIDOLONE : After hearing other people, I have actually changed my mind a little.
To summarize: AOR is an official Project cars 2 league, and they want clean and fair racing. If we'd use the ingame system, there would be some corners where people would cut a lot, and to people watching, it's not a good image of AOR.

And there are no other solutions than using the ingame system or be very strict on corner cutting, you can't just do something in the middle, it would be too complicated.

AOR is to be a very competitive environment. 'Fun' is not the 1st objective. If someone wants to drive just for fun, they can do public lobbys or less "serious" league (as I am doing in parallel to AOR).
I mean, I don't want to say that AOR isn't fun, I'm really enjoying it myself, but you can't have 100%fun and 100% serious competition at the same time.
So, we have to be serious on track, and can have fun in the forums and in discord ;)

(This is how I understand it and I hope I didn't explained wrongly 'AOR mindset')
 

AEIDOLONE

Formula 4 Test Driver
Feb 7, 2018
71
43
And there are no other solutions than using the ingame system or be very strict on corner cutting, you can't just do something in the middle, it would be too complicated.
I didn't ask for other solutions. Just to let the official game handle the official league with the official cutting penalty system.

But ok, AOR knows it better. And if they have the time to handle the reports and everything else, I'm ok with it.
I'm trying to be as clean us possible, but I 'm sure as hard as you try there will always be one or two guys who didn't follow it, at some point or another...

And then, we have no fair racing.

It's impossible atm to keep track of all drivers, for all the laps, throughout the whole race. That's what I'm talking about.
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
I'm trying to be as clean us possible, but I 'm sure as hard as you try there will always be one or two guys who didn't follow it, at some point or another...

And then, we have no fair racing.

It's impossible atm to keep track of all drivers, for all the laps, throughout the whole race. That's what I'm talking about.
Hum I understand your point. But I think that, if someone do some cutting:
- If he is far from you in race, it won't impact your result much (unless he gains a lot of time doing it, but probably someone else will see him and (should) report him)
- If he is close to you, and if you see him cutting in race, you can report him.

Surely there can be cases where we don't see cuts, but overall I don't think people are cutting everywhere, the game is overall strict enough. There are just some specific tracks/corners that can be abused easily like Zolder/RBR.
 

N1kmido

F1 Senna Equivalent
Sep 17, 2016
921
908
I mean, I don't want to say that AOR isn't fun, I'm really enjoying it myself, but you can't have 100%fun and 100% serious competition at the same time.
Why not? For me personally I have the most fun if there is a serious (and fair) competition going on. People who are spreading toxic atmosphere every so often are mostly those who did break the rules, received a penalty for it and don´t want to accept that.
 
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Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
Why not? For me personally I have the most fun if there is a serious (and fair) competition going on. People who are spreading toxic atmosphere every so often are mostly those who did break the rules, received a penalty for it and don´t want to accept that.
I'd say it's a different kind of fun ^^ Not sure how to explain it better though, English isn't my native language ;)
 

DerChris

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 15, 2017
86
86
Outside the white line = cut
Inside the white line = no cut

Complicated? Not in the slightest!
More 'wasted'* time for me? No real reason for that to have to happen if ppl respect the rules they agreed too.

*Although it took a lot of my free time to run that investigation, if even 1 person learn to not cut, then that wasn't 'wasted'!
The point what some people missunderstand is that the rules are written a bit complicated (and in the end maybe the writers meant something different). The rules are not saying that leaving the track is not allowed, they are saying that you're not allowed to leave the track to gain any adventage!
1.4 Corner cutting/track extending
● Stay within the track boundaries with at least two tyres at all times. The track boundaries are defined by the white lines, NOT by the edge of the kerbs. Cutting corners, or extending the track, to gain an advantage is not allowed. Drivers found to be persistently breaking this rule will be penalised retrospectively.

1.4.2
● If you overtake another driver with all four wheels off track, or as a consequence of cutting a corner, you must slow down and give the position back.

1.4.3
● The odd misjudgement of a corner can happen, but if you accidentally gain an advantage by going outside the track limits, you are expected to back off to an extent that clearly negates any advantage gained. Failing to do this puts you at the risk of being penalised in game, however if it fails to penalise you, an enquiry can be opened for the stewards to review.

1.4.4
● If a driver is reported to the stewards for a breach of this rule, it is up to the stewards' discretion as to whether they feel the driver has abused the track limits to an extent where a penalty is justified, and if so what type of penalty is appropriate to be handed out. This will depend on the severity and frequency of the cuts. The bottom line is, if you want to make sure you are not in danger of being awarded a stewards penalty, make sure you don't gain time from leaving the track limits throughout qualifying and the race.

1.4.4.1
● If track limits are exceeded, you need to very clearly demonstrate that you have lost any time gained by lifting completely off throttle for the amount of time you were outside the white lines. This makes it easier to distinguish that an attempt was made to negate any advantage, in any replays or footage provided to the stewards after the race. The in-game system is pretty accurate, however if you are found to still be exceeding track limits regularly, even when coming off throttle to give up any advantage, or not lifting off throttle for long enough, you can still be penalised after the race.
If something is written like that you have always to look at the whole rule, you never can take only a part of it (like for example the first sentence of 1.4.1).
At the first look, it can look like 1.4.1 is written a bit contradictorily, but if you're looking at the whole 1.4.1 rule, then it clearly (at least in my eyes) says that gaining an advantage through leaving the track with more than two tyres which is defined by the white line (so not by the edge of the curbs), is not allowed. If you would take the first sentence of the rule as the main message, the 3rd sentence would not make any sense at all.
And then there is 1.4.2 which is telling that if you overtook someone with four tyres off the track, you have to slow down and give the position back. So what about three tyres? Some people could maybe think that if you overtook someone with three tires off the track you don't have to slow down and gave the position back, but because of the rule 1.4.1 that thought is wrong. It's maybe for some people a bit misleading and complicated.

So if you guys are against leaving the track (no matter how), you have to rewrite the rules, because in the moment it is allowed to leave the track as long as you don't gain any adventage....
 
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Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
513
446
So if you guys are against leaving the track (no matter how), you have to rewrite the rules, because in the moment it is allowed to leave the track as long as you don't gain any adventage....
I don't think so, because of: "1.4.4.1 [...]however if you are found to still be exceeding track limits regularly, even when coming off throttle to give up any advantage, or not lifting off throttle for long enough, you can still be penalised after the race."
 

DerChris

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 15, 2017
86
86
I don't think so, because of: "1.4.4.1 [...]however if you are found to still be exceeding track limits regularly, even when coming off throttle to give up any advantage, or not lifting off throttle for long enough, you can still be penalised after the race."
That's a good point. But there are also some issues with that rule. For example what is the exact definition of "regularly". And still with that rule you're allowed to leave the track sometimes (without gaining any advantage or if you gained an advantage you have slow down for example) and not like some people here in the forums are saying, never.
 
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Yorkie065

SMS Representative
Staff member
PCARS Coordinator
AOR Commentator
Jan 19, 2014
1,641
2,549
I don't think so, because of: "1.4.4.1 [...]however if you are found to still be exceeding track limits regularly, even when coming off throttle to give up any advantage, or not lifting off throttle for long enough, you can still be penalised after the race."
That's a good point. But there are also some issues with that rule. For example what is the exact definition of "regularly". And still with that rule you're allowed to leave the track sometimes (without gaining any advantage or if you gained an advantage you have slow down for example) and not like some people here in the forums are saying, never.
The intention behind that rule there is to try and ensure a safe and clean environment. What we don't want happening, is essentially someone lap after lap going off in the same corners and going beyond track limits, even if they never gain an advantage from it. It can be seen as potentially being dangerous, not only for themselves but for other drivers on track around them, and with livetrack also having dirt being brought onto the circuit which can reduce grip, that danger is ever more present. Therefore, if someone is basically showing a lack of respect through this to the track limits and other drivers, and not making any real attempt in order to improve or avoid making mistakes, they can be penalized (with lighter penalties) in order to enforce and ensure it doesn't happen again.

As for definition of "regularly", basically going beyond track limits repeatedly. Not necessarily every lap, but in various corners around the track, making the same errors every couple of laps or so.