PC - Just a humble opinion on why I am out. | ApexOnlineRacing.com

PC Just a humble opinion on why I am out.


DaveGaming

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 5, 2018
89
62
Hi guys,



as you can see from the title, I'm dropping out of the league. I have also talked to V. Korus in Split 1 before, who told me that if I take the step, I should write a short feedback to help improve the league. Up to 700 people parallely watched my ACC AOR streams, but what is happening here in the league is not worthy of this number of viewers.

I've been playing racing games before I was 3 years old and since a few years I've been playing multiplayer a lot. In some leagues, but also in open lobbies, like the CP races in ACC, Daily Races in GT Sport or Scheduled Races in iRacing. Summary in short: The racing I experience in iRacing & CP racing is mostly much better than what I experienced here.

I have not had a race in 5 races where I was not rammed and therefore lost positions and/or suffered damage. I would like to know how the Porsche drives itself without damage. I don't even practice for the races, because I already know what's coming. And it always does.

But where does that come from? Are the participants just reckless and not able to fight clean? This may be true to some extent as there are many new drivers, but in a league, the leadership of the league has the task of educating the drivers to behave adequately. I respect the work that the league leadership does, but I don't agree with the rules and interpretation of the rules, because the rules don't achieve better netiquette than in iRacing & co., but reward reckless driving. No penalty means no learning effect.

This already starts with the topic "Weaving". In ACC we have a not to be neglected bad netcode, where the cars warp around. Nevertheless "Breaking the tow" is even allowed at 0.1 seconds. How close do I need to get then? So close that a warp might lead to huge damage? In iRacing nobody does this nonsense by the way. Same for GT Sport and CP races so far. This should be clearly forbidden in the rules, or does anyone want to see a slalom run? I have already noted this, Dan_Suzuki's comment got 8 Likes in a very short time, you could simply put the topic in the rules with a one-time change of direction, but nobody of the responsible persons goes into it at all. That would be a simple way to strictly better the racing here.

By the way, a strict punishment catalogue, like the ACC AOR League has it, is of no use at all, if it is not applied and "minor" offences remain completely unpunished. Dive bombs from over 5 vehicle lengths remain unpunished. Is this "Racing"? Soon I will drive my first real kilometres in a real racing series on the Nordschleife. No one will drive that way. And if they do, there'll be serious property damage. We are not in real racing, but why not adapt the good things of real racing? There's not even a penalty for those things which motivates participants to stupid attacks. In Zandvoort, Monza and Hungary I was the victim of a divebomb (or a half-hearted attack like Hamilton/Albon in Interlagos). In Zandvoort the driver got away without penalty, in Monza and Hungary, I was spun but it was too stupid for me to make a steward request. Why should I? That's exactly what the AOR seems to want to see: Stupid attacks where the cleverer one gives in. Otherwise you get turned around and lose time, positions and have to repair your vehicle.

With such a system you are always at a disadvantage to be the nice guy on the track. And that's why people here in the split drive so aggressively and stupidly. Racing intelligence may be lacking in some people. But if you are not punished for stupid attacks and you are usually better off afterwards, you don't need racing intelligence, just a good dive bomb. Is that racing? In some way, but it is rather shitty racing.



I started racing in the AOR in F1 2018 Season 16. Everything looked pretty professional there and the drivers were driven to be fair and not to be out for collisions. Of course GT Sport is tougher than Formula Sport. But that doesn't mean that you have to force a scenario from the most hopeless position where there is either damage or the front man gives way because he doesn't want a spin/damage. I prefer to spend Tuesday with open lobbies in iRacing or CP races. There will be some too hard attacks and stupid guys too, but at least I know that their behavior is not approved by a league rulebook. And on such a Tuesday I will surely have more good races than here in the whole league so far.

At the end of this text, I want to thank everyone who made a clean fight possible. There are some nice guys here too, which I don't want to keep quiet about. It's a pity that I had to write this text here like this. There were some hard words, but this is all the result of 5 sobering races with little race craft from others on track. This league is no fun with what I experienced and the viewers still cheer but fear every car behind me, because it mostly leads to me being spun or damaged - as do I. Hopefully this betters in the next seasons but so far I’m out.



Cheers!
 
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dakuza

F1 1st Driver
Feb 8, 2018
626
627
First of all sad to see you leave and as a fellow racer, thank you for your feedback. Clearly you put much thought into that and I can understand where you're coming from.

I have always thought of AOR as a league where people race very cleanly and with respect. I have raced here 10 seasons in PC2 and ACC with very few incidents. To be honest the ACC leagues have had a lot more inquiries than I'd like to see and clearly a step in the wrong direction, but I've thought of that as teething issues with so many new people joining.

As for the rules and penalties for bad driving, I think this season the penalties took a step in the right direction but there might still be room for improvement. Many of the accident-prone people seem to be repeat offenders and unfortunately the penalty point system can be slow to react as you can rack up multiple offences before it affects you.
 

VoodooChild

ACC Coordinator
Staff member
ACC Coordinator
Mar 27, 2018
1,574
1,134
Stewards are handing out 3-5 pitlane penalties per round, and penalty points are piling up so the number of these penalties will only increase (DT at 15 pp, SG30 at 25pp, race ban at 40pp).
A number drivers who received these penalties already elected to not come back in the following rounds, so i guess the system is kinda working well?

Stewards are also getting harsher and harsher with penalties, because few races into the season they expect everybody to be used to the league, the game and the high number of cars on the track.

About the "weaving" thread, i see that as a perfect example of Shakespearian "much ado about nothing": it's a tactic avaiable only in paul ricard's mistral straight, it's been used by 2 or 3 people of the almost 200 drivers in the league, and it didn't produce a single incident.

Finally, if you feel like stewards should be much more strict and penalties much heavier, i'd like to know which penalty you would apply to an incident like this one:


As proven by the "start procedure" topic, coordinators and stewards staff are eager to listen the community advices. :)
 
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V.Korus

Pro Karter
Oct 29, 2019
41
78
Sad to see that you leave @DaveGaming but i can fully understand it. Last season @dakuza and me drove in the pro tier. And the whole pro tier was always clean and fair.
We didnt had much incidents at all, clearly mature driving there a whole season. On the otherside there was the elite tier. Where i really tought oh god i dont wanna drive there.
Since there where incidents on a level i dont even can describe now. And now im driving in the elite tier. And i must really say its the same level of mature driving again like
in the pro tier i was before.

And im really sad if i see whats happening in the pro tier currently. And i dont mean the start crash in hungary, even more the general driving behaviour of other drivers there.
My view on all this is, that i think that there are to many drivers in each split. +40 drivers at the season start. I mean it isnt bad, its just that if you start in the mid pack of all those
drivers, the ego gets bigger and bigger and some of them dont care if you are there. And so it comes to these really unneeded incidents. If each driver would respect the other
everything would be much easier.

The stewards doing a hard job with all those incidents each week. And at some points i really think they need to be harsher if sombody does crash again. Some people dont learn
or dont want to learn from this.

But this is again a topic for season 4, like we did for season 3. Also the netcode plays in acc a big role. GT3 racing is also contact sport in some way. If we bump sombody
very very light in the rear, he spins. If kunos could adjust this a bit more in a stable way, i think also we didnt had so much reports. I mean if sombody bumps me slightly
i think to myself yeah this happens it okay.

All i can say to all racers here which are new in the aor, just respect each other driver, thats what im doing. Dont play the big ego game, dont think you are alone
out there on the track. Wait for good possibility to past and dont dive bomb. Sometimes patience is the key for good racing.
 

Steve Allan

F1 Reserve Driver
May 12, 2019
506
317
I can only talk like someone who's racing in Tier five, and baring a couple of races there hasn't been any major issues with drivers causing crashes and all that. In fact, we (in the tier) joke that we're probably the cleanest racers in the ACC league. I guess (and I'm talking more of from my perspective) we want to prove to everyone just because we're in the lowest tier of racers, we want to prove to ourselves and others who may come across one of our streams as hungry, tough racers that do so fairly, not like you would expect in the rookies for iRacing for example who have the worse reputation on that service.

In regards to the size of the tiers I honestly think if AOR (as a website) could produce more servers for ACC (I don't know if the people who run the forums pay for the servers or not) and then maybe have each tier at say 20 to 25 per server that could limit the issues that we're getting at the moment with some of the crashes that are being shown in the stewards panel almost weekly, and it seems like it's the same offenders all the time.

This is what I said when it came to the discussion about the widget starting and maybe this should now become the norm for repeat offenders, just ignore the bit about the starting line contacts, and I'll highlight/Bold the one important part I think should be taken into consideration

But if you're involved in contact during the formation lap, that should be the 15 points and a pitlane start next race regardless. But they are only allowed to join the race once everyone is up to race speed (So, in essence, putting them two laps down) then if they do it again a full race ban and then if they do it again for a 3rd time have them not get banned from racing on here, but forced to start in the lowest tier possible and they have to rebuild that trust.
So, for example, Joe Bloggs is a pro tier racer but has a reputation for causing crashes and been repeatedly reported to the steward's room. Clearly, it's showing either a lack of understanding or worse complete disregard to their other racers or worse ego because he is as quick as Lewis Hamilton. If there were a chance to create a sixth or seventh server, religate this driver down to the lowest tier possible with other like reputation drivers and before they can even consider moving up the next level they need to have a clean track record. If they cannot improve their behaviour then maybe then consider putting them on a blacklist.

However I have to admit I wouldn't like to be a steward at the moment because they are in a thankless task, They either try and deal with the right sort of punishment and still get complained that they're not doing enough. Or they might decide not to take action due to something uncontrollable like for example a spike in a drivers ping and if that person was racing for the win will still get complained at because it cost someone their win or whatever.

Hopefully, you'll come back to the league because it would be a shame for you to leave, and who knows maybe in a few weeks time once the season is over and the frustrations have died down you'll be back.
 

dakuza

F1 1st Driver
Feb 8, 2018
626
627
I see some merit in your idea @Steve Allan but definitely would not demote drivers to lower tier. Lower tier does not mean "worse" and should not be seen as a penalty. Lower tier means slower and that's it, the level of racing etiquette is very good in lower tiers. Dropping a faster driver with an attitude problem is a sure way to cause mayhem.

How about if repeat offenders are put back on evaluation so they have to drive a practice race cleanly in order to be allowed back on track.
 
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Steve Allan

F1 Reserve Driver
May 12, 2019
506
317
I see some merit in your idea @Steve Allan but definitely would not demote drivers to lower tier. Lower tier does not mean "worse" and should not be seen as a penalty. Lower tier means slower and that's it, the level of racing etiquette is very good in lower tiers. Dropping a faster driver with an attitude problem is a sure way to cause mayhem.

How about if repeat offenders are put back on evaluation so they have to drive a practice race cleanly in order to be allowed back on track.
You know something Dakuza, that is perhaps the better solution, I only thought about a penalty tier idea off the top of my head. But then they could do well enough in the re-evaluation and repeat history, unless if said driver is warned that due to the need of a re-evaluation if their behaviour doesn't improve then they wouldn't be allowed to race again for maybe two seasons/blacklisted (that would be down to the cords discretion)
 

VoodooChild

ACC Coordinator
Staff member
ACC Coordinator
Mar 27, 2018
1,574
1,134
AOR driver license works exactly like that.

if you pile up 50pts, you are (likely) out, at least of the season
 
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Shooter80

ACC Coordinator
Staff member
ACC Coordinator
Premium Member
Dec 23, 2017
1,237
1,291
First of all, its always a shame to have a driver not enjoy the league and choose to leave. We had some brief battles over the first rounds, but always fun and fair, and from my side you were a welcome addition to the grid.

However I'm confused by a lot of what you have written, as your opinion of your experiences are quite vastly different from mine.

Please take my reply as a fellow racer, and not as a league coordinator (I'm not even an active tier coordinator) or as a representative of AOR.

I have not had a race in 5 races where I was not rammed and therefore lost positions and/or suffered damage
I tried to check back on the enquiries you raised for the incidents in these 5 races and I found only two.
  • The one at Paul Ricard where you complained of excessive weaving, and where you got a bump on the rear (no spin, no overtake). Which was closed with a 5 penalty points for Recential, which caused him (in addition to other points he had previous) resulted in him being issued a drive though penalty at the next round at Monza.

  • The indicent at Zandvoort, which while being extremely regrettable, and having a bad outcome (mostly due to to issues you had recovering your car), was, imo, more of a mistake in judgement than something intentionally reckless, or dangerous, and the resulting 5 penalty points now has Phob1a in the situation where he is only the very smallest of infractions away from getting a drivethrough.
In my personal opinion, neither of these are any worse, and are arguably less-bad than you taking out two cars and just driving off at hungry in the video posted by Voodoo. I'm not sure how much more you think someone can be reprimanded than the above, since you surely must be able to accept that mistakes can happen, and that you would deserve the same, if not worse, punishment for Hungary.

and "minor" offences remain completely unpunished
I'm confused why you would complain about this, both incidents you reported were punished, the only incident I can see you involved in that was written off as a racing incident was the one raised against you.

I was spun but it was too stupid for me to make a steward request. Why should I?
From my point of view, if someone wants to complain about others driving with any validity, then they should first make enquiries about it, otherwise its just hersey. Same with if someone wants to complain about the stewards system being ineffective, that only really carries weight if it comes from someone who actually tries to use it properly.

This already starts with the topic "Weaving".
Regarding weaving, I'm confused why its considered such a big deal, to me all someone weaving along a straight does is cause themselves to travel further, and therefore be slower along it, and also to collect marbles, so they have less grip in the next corner. Recential did the same thing at PR when I was behind him and I just ignored it and drove in a straight line and gained some tenths.

But either way, he didn't break a rule as-written, and AOR can't retrospectively change the rules and then apply the amendments to past actions (otherwise I expect Dan Suzuki would have been DQ'd at Zandvoort). Sure, the rules may be adjusted going forward, but imo its not something that is dangerous, widespread, unfair, or urgent enough to just make a change to the rules based on one event/complaint. So its fine left as-is for now.

but nobody of the responsible persons goes into it at all.
Your first response on that thread was from the head AOR ACC coordinator.

In ACC we have a not to be neglected bad netcode, where the cars warp around
Other cars, in general, do not warp around for me, they do not rubber-band on the straights, and I don't feel I have to leave other cars any more space in ACC, to avoid contact, than I do in any other sim (although admittedly contact has worse consequences in ACC than in some other sims). I don't have a magically fast connection, and I'm not much closer to the server than anyone else. If you have other cars warping regularly, then I'd suggest the issue is much more likely to be at your end (streaming can't help, but there are changes you can make), than with the code of ACC itself.

I could go on to address a lot of your other comments that I disagree with, but they would be in a more personal level, and I don't feel that would have any value, so best I just agree to disagree on them. But in closing, you admit yourself that in other racing sims, or in other races in ACC that there are "hard attacks and stupid guys" and you evidently also make mistakes yourself, I feel you are possibly looking for something that doesn't exist, a magical land where no-one else makes mistakes but you, I wish you all the best in finding that, but I'll stay where I am.
 

DaveGaming

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 5, 2018
89
62
Stewards are handing out 3-5 pitlane penalties per round, and penalty points are piling up so the number of these penalties will only increase (DT at 15 pp, SG30 at 25pp, race ban at 40pp).
A number drivers who received these penalties already elected to not come back in the following rounds, so i guess the system is kinda working well?

Stewards are also getting harsher and harsher with penalties, because few races into the season they expect everybody to be used to the league, the game and the high number of cars on the track.

About the "weaving" thread, i see that as a perfect example of Shakespearian "much ado about nothing": it's a tactic avaiable only in paul ricard's mistral straight, it's been used by 2 or 3 people of the almost 200 drivers in the league, and it didn't produce a single incident.

Finally, if you feel like stewards should be much more strict and penalties much heavier, i'd like to know which penalty you would apply to an incident like this one:


As proven by the "start procedure" topic, coordinators and stewards staff are eager to listen the community advices. :)
So long, I cannot see anything wrong because it seemed to be an issue due to netcode - there was no contact messaged, right? If I'm proven to be responsible for the collision even without any contact recognized by ACC, this would be weird but I would accept any penalty the stewards give. That's why they are there for, aren't they? It's not my job.
Don't try to turn around my words to change the meaning. Not penalizing the first incident here: https://apexonlineracing.com/community/threads/tier-2-round-2-3-incidents-moved.63219/ leads to behaviour like this: https://apexonlineracing.com/community/threads/acc-tier-2-round-5-1st-incident.63902/ - There is no need to search for a critical situation caused by me. Doesn't make it look like you reflected that but rather try to turn on me.

For the weaving thing you were also vocal that you did not like it. Any bet, I could weave everywhere to annoy you being behind me? I also did it for a short second in Hungary. Not that often, but I changed my line twice while Vanderwell was 1 second behind me. The problem is not that people are(n't) doing it. It is allowed and Tom personally told me, he would do it again to defend his position because he is allowed to. It's his right to do that, so nothing against him at this point. But don't you think there is a problem in the system when that ugly driving is allowed? As soon as you'll need it, you could do it and people will do it.
 

DaveGaming

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 5, 2018
89
62
@Shooter80

There you go man:

An other guy posted this:

This happened in Monza, part 1


Part 2 of Monza Mayhem was at 30:25. Opportunistic as always.

Same like in Monza happened in Hungary. @Backe Gabrielsen posted that one already.

One more thing in Zandvoort happened:

And this all happens because you guys allow people to go completely wild. If this divebomb is allowed (that's what I meant with the "minor" incident): https://apexonlineracing.com/community/threads/tier-2-round-2-3-incidents-moved.63219/ ... how should any other of these contacts be penalized? Do you just judge by what damage was done? So, you guys want me to not open the door when someone does an opportunistic move, ruining my race? Or do you want me to open the door all the time to avoid incoming death from behind? How am I supposed to properly drive with those scenarios in mind? What would you do? Defend to get fucked up or open the door to still get fucked up by the car behind and the Stewards not giving a penalty for a clearly opportunistic too motivated move?

"Your first response on that thread was from the head AOR ACC coordinator. "

Cool. Nice to hear his opinion on that. Again here: Don't try to state things I never said. I never wanted a rule change to retrospectively punish the Paul Ricard stuff. Never. People went vocal on that topic, as I said. It's not about answering my question with a "I don't like it too". Nobody after me seems to be recognized on this topic, asking for a correction of an obvious mistake when writing the rules. When you tell me to be vocal about things I don't like, as drivers' behaviour on track, to improve the league in the best way and then you ignore a topic with so much approval, concerning a topic of general driving behaviour on track, then don't get me wrong, when your words don't have that much credibility to me. "It's not dangerous", but it's ugly and nobody can tell me, he likes that more than proper racing on track. Couldn't have been that hard to change, as Dan stated. Yet wasn't done.

And to the netcode thing: I'm not the first one to report warping cars. You can't deny that ACC has a netcode which makes collision more likely and cars are warping here and there. In case you never had issues with the ACC netcode, you are a lucky one. Steve states issues. Korus states issues. But it must have to do something with my streaming stuff, yeah...

You guys could just stop the circlejerk here and try to reflect some of the criticism. Obviously it isn't just me who thinks that the Pro Tier is not any as good as last season. There is a problem. I haven't heard of any of you guys a confirmation on that so far. Just a short passage of Voodoo trying to mirror my critique on me showing me the netcode clip. To me, it doesn't matter if you are in favor of my arguments or against. It is the league you are running, it's not mine. I was just vocal about a clear maladministration of driving behavior to help better the league experience.

I won't be vocal on this topic anymore. I spent much time on writing those texts, which I could have used on videos, livestreams etc., just to help you guys out with a clear problem, when everyone states, he wouldn't like to change roles with a steward at the moment. Ask yourself why. Take the mentioned points and try to make the splits go cleaner so Steves split doesn't need to joke about it anymore (it should alarm you no later than that people do that...) or leave it as it was done with the weaving thing.
 
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DaveGaming

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 5, 2018
89
62
AOR driver license works exactly like that.

if you pile up 50pts, you are (likely) out, at least of the season
Final thing to add: This doesn't help when pretty much nothing is penalized and when you wait so long that the fair drivers leave to (I quote) "join a more professional league". Happened here. Learned my lesson not to wait that long. Hopefully you learned something out of that too.
 

Smolda

AOR PC Endurance League S4 GTE Champion
Oct 23, 2017
354
297
I think the contact was recognized by ACC, my car was hit and spun. On both my end and your end. Also, I've seen contacts without safety rating warnings. In PC2 for example, if something like this happens and there is a lag involved, the driver behind doesn't see contact at all. But maybe it works differently in ACC, I have no idea. I was just surprised that you immediately blamed netcode and continued,
Anyway, this doesn't make your points in the OP invalid at all, no one was searching "for a critical situasion" caused by you.

With such a system you are always at a disadvantage to be the nice guy on the track. And that's why people here in the split drive so aggressively and stupidly. Racing intelligence may be lacking in some people. But if you are not punished for stupid attacks and you are usually better off afterwards, you don't need racing intelligence, just a good dive bomb. Is that racing? In some way, but it is rather shitty racing.
Wow, that's rather harsh. Personally, I haven't seen anyone driving "aggressively and stupidly" in this split. There were some not very good decisions (at least one of them made by me), but that's it. With this amount of people you will always have accidents. That's what the stewards are for.

Btw, the only time I tried racing in other community than AOR (Mr Git's big grid race) it was awful. Got crashed multiple times and quit. I also haven't tried racing in public lobbies for a long time, basically since I joined AOR (over 2 years ago). Which is why I find it hard to believe, that you will get better racing experience in open lobbies in Iracing. I'll probably watch some of your streams in the future :p
 
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Steve Allan

F1 Reserve Driver
May 12, 2019
506
317
Just to add about random races on IRacing. Yes the service can be better, However it down to who your paired with. I have mentioned on discord a few times that I’ve experienced better racing on the Mazda rookies over an A licences series like the VRS series. I have been involved with drivers in VRS where they don’t care about your SR and will literally drive through you, and complain about you causing the crash.

Also, the jokes are tongue in cheek. I know being in a lower tier means we’re not the quickest, but since I’ve been here in AOR (both as a driver and a fan) I can honestly say compared to other Online racing services, AOR is perhaps the better experience I’ve had in a year of online racing.

I honestly and sincerely hope that you’ll consider returning to AOR and the ACC league in the future and I hope to see you on the track in the future.
 

Shooter80

ACC Coordinator
Staff member
ACC Coordinator
Premium Member
Dec 23, 2017
1,237
1,291
your words don't have that much credibility to me
You should probably stop reading right here.


And this all happens because you guys allow people to go completely wild.
I'm sorry, but for not posting a stewards enquiry, it is not AOR or the stewards that 'allow' people anything, it is you who allow it (and partially condone it) by not raising an enquiry yourself.

You only gave one timestamp, and I'm not going to take the time to watch the entire video, but the one you mentioned at 30:25 isn't even something that is clear-cut to me from the view in your stream at least.

The 911 started far back, but was overlapping with your car when you hit the brakes, was overlapping with your car for the entire of the braking zone, and was overlapping with your car while you started turning into the corner, and you did not leave a cars width on the inside. Depending how much overlap there was (the rules state the front wheels of following car in line with rear wheels of leading car) then the incident might well be blamed on you.

1584090034630.png

Without better/more camera angles and more opinions, its hard to predict what the outcome of the stewards enquiry would have been, but regardless, you could easily have still held your position if you just left a cars width at the apex and not hoped the other car would evaporate (its not like you can expect another car to slow down even more when already fully on the brakes). Its situations like that, and the awareness of people to not just turn into a corner when there would be guaranteed contact that imo separate the truly great racers from those who just happen to be able to be able to string some fast laps together.

In all racing (real or sim) drivers have to adjust their lines sometimes to avoid certain contact, even sometimes when the other car has put their nose where it didn't have a right to be, that's part of racing with other cars on track. The alternative is having an "I will take whatever line I choose and if a car is there we crash" attitude just causes people to be in more crashes.

I think you would do yourself good to reflect some more on your own driving (that incident in Hungary is a perfect example). I expect all your viewers tell you nothing is your fault, and everyone else is 100% to blame, but that's not reality.

What would you do?
I'd have chosen to leave space, since not doing so would bring certain contact, had the inside for turn 2, expected to have kept my position anyway, survived without contact, and then if I felt truly aggrieved, raised a stewards enquiry afterwards. The alternative would be to turn in and certainly crash, and I don't like crashing, no matter who's fault I think it is.

Its possible to defend a position while also leaving another car space at the same time.

Nobody after me seems to be recognized on this topic
Your first reply, your second reply, your third reply, and your fourth reply were all from AOR coordinators. Perhaps it is not apparent but we have internal boards/channels where we discuss things like potential rule changes. To just assume that nobody is discussing something because they didn't invite you the conversation, or you can't see it, is a rather narcissistic.

Although I do accept that it wouldn't have been a bad thing for it to have been stated it was to be considered to be changed, and ideally that will be done in future.

you ignore a topic with so much approval
You assume far too much, because you don't witness something it must mean it is not happening?.
3 replies, and 8 likes out of ~180 drivers isn't really "so much", but it wasn't ignored regardless.

Obviously it isn't just me who thinks that the Pro Tier is not any as good as last season. There is a problem. I haven't heard of any of you guys a confirmation on that so far.
I don't think anyone has confirmed nor denied it publicly, but we do have our own opinions/discussions/data. Although its worth bearing in mind that with ~40% more cars on track compared to last season, it would be expected there would be 40% more incidents given the same level of 'cleanness'.

Again here: Don't try to state things I never said
Again? I must have missed something.

And to the netcode thing: I'm not the first one to report warping cars. You can't deny that ACC has a netcode which makes collision more likely and cars are warping here and there. In case you never had issues with the ACC netcode, you are a lucky one. Steve states issues. Korus states issues. But it must have to do something with my streaming stuff, yeah...
I do deny that. In my opinion and experience there is nothing wrong with the positional tracking/netcode of ACC regarding the likelihood of a collision, providing the user has a stable connection. Its only the collision-model/severity of collisions that is worse in ACC. Sometimes people use one term when referring to the other though, or combine them both into one, but they are distinct from each other.

I expect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You guys could just stop the circlejerk here
Not sure what you mean.
 

fläsk

Premium Member
Premium Member
Aug 27, 2018
138
132
Just to add in my opinion on all this. The whole aggressive driving I personaly believe stems from the fact that the cars are as competetive as they are unlike games like PC2 and iRacing where some cars have a clear advantage over others. This means that unless you have a clear pace advantage over the car infront of you, you have to drive aggressively to get past the guy infront. Seeing how competetive the tiers are this season that means that a lot of times the only way to get past people is to out brake them into a braking zone. I think the aggressive driving also has to do with the fact that people want to improve and hopefully get pumped up a tier and they might believe that it will happen through good race results. I don't think that people try to go out of their way trying to take eachother out but I do agree that some people do have quite questionable driving standards. I've always done these sort of things because I want to have fun and don't really care about results and I would agree with @dakuza that a lot of the older guys that used to race over in PC2 often race fair but as said there's a lot of new guys that try to advance in the tiers faster than they probably should. You also can't compare iRacing and ACC considering they work completely differently, I did the 9h race with some of my friends who primaraly race over on iRacing and they were shocked over the fact that people start racing like it's a sprint race from the get go and that lapped cars defend against the cars that are lapping them. I think it all has to do with the fact that you don't lose anything in ACC like you do in iRacing. It may give the cod team a lot of work but all you can do is create steward enquiries. The only other solution is to find people that would volunteer to actively steward the races but I doubt anyone would agree to doing that.
 
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Steve Allan

F1 Reserve Driver
May 12, 2019
506
317
This will probably be my last comment on this thread because I feel that we can keep going around in a circle regarding this. But I honestly think there is a difference between racing games. With ACC I think having the real world BOP in play really levels out the cars in a way that it will always lead to more daring moves and overtakes, you know like in real life. How many times have we seen drivers in all forms of motorsport try something that looks crazy and wreckless to (to paraphrase Gunter) that can make us look like rockstars on the track or well w****ers. I'm sure that if we asked any driver who has been pulled into the steward's thread once they've cooled down if they could have done something different I would probably say 98% of them would say "Yes". Ironically I think my friendship with Morphee came about due to him reporting me to the stewards after an accident in my first ever league race here.

I am probably one of the most laid back people when it comes to racing, Sure on other online racing sites I've issued steward reports in the past to various success, but I know the best thing to do is to try and open a conversation about it, before considering going through everything like that. Half the time, if you openly apologise in-game chat or discord people are willing to listen and this is why I've stopped racing on Sim Racing System. Because it got to the point where if you even looked at the back of someone's car for an overtake, the next time you're in the chat you will see people going "I'm going to get you banned off this service" or "Enjoy your cool-off period a-hole". No one is prepared to listen to your side of the story. Would I ever report something to the stewards, yes? But it would have to be something so bad that affected the race to the point of retirement, but I would put it to the context of the rule of five (Would this bother you in five minutes, five hours, five days etc) unless it was done and it cost me a race win for example.

Also, the idea of having a live/active steward in the races would be a nightmare in my view. For one could you imagine if you were given a 30 second stop and go penalty? You would have someone to potentially target with your anger and someone to blame if it the resulting enquiry didn't go your way, and we know some people on the internet can be vindictive as hell. As much as the faceless steward system is a basic and easy thing to blame "Because they weren't there in the race" being a steward for racing gamers must be a nightmare and can only do what they can on what they see in front of them with testaments from the drivers and the footage recorded by the people involved.

Anyway, whatever you decide to do. Hope you enjoy what you and like I said in the past post of mine, I hope that once tempters have cooled down, you'll decide to give the ACC league another shot regardless if it's next season or a couple of seasons down the line.
 

Shooter80

ACC Coordinator
Staff member
ACC Coordinator
Premium Member
Dec 23, 2017
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You only gave one timestamp
The embedded timestamps in the videos are working now (didn't earlier just put me to the start...honest), so I can give my view on them.


Clear fault to the other driver, he was issued a 15 second penalty, and 10 penalty points, putting him the smallest infraction away from a drivethrough at the next race.



You were very much the innocent victim here, I can't find an enquiry for that though, but I expect it would have been at least 10 penalty points for the contact alone, with another 5 penalty points for it being on the first lap. 15 penalty points is a guaranteed drive through, or worse, for the next round, along with likely a drop of about 8 positions in the standing for Monza.

Monza Part 2:

I addressed in my previous reply
The 911 started far back, but was overlapping with your car when you hit the brakes, was overlapping with your car for the entire of the braking zone, and was overlapping with your car while you started turning into the corner, and you did not leave a cars width on the inside. Depending how much overlap there was (the rules state the front wheels of following car in line with rear wheels of leading car) then the incident might well be blamed on you.

1584090034630.png

Without better/more camera angles and more opinions, its hard to predict what the outcome of the stewards enquiry would have been, but regardless, you could easily have still held your position if you just left a cars width at the apex and not hoped the other car would evaporate (its not like you can expect another car to slow down even more when already fully on the brakes). Its situations like that, and the awareness of people to not just turn into a corner when there would be guaranteed contact that imo separate the truly great racers from those who just happen to be able to be able to string some fast laps together.

In all racing (real or sim) drivers have to adjust their lines sometimes to avoid certain contact, even sometimes when the other car has put their nose where it didn't have a right to be, that's part of racing with other cars on track. The alternative is having an "I will take whatever line I choose and if a car is there we crash" attitude just causes people to be in more crashes.
The Hungary incident is an open enquiry, so I won't comment on that for now, until we see their decision.


I also feel that would have been best to go in front of the stewards, you of course did nothing wrong, fault should go to the car behind. The minimum for a collision is 5 penalty point, with usually +5 Penalty points for it being first lap, 15 points total is a drivethrough for the next race, so even if it was minor the driver would be even the smallest infraction away from getting a drivethrough at the next round, if it was deemed moderate, then they would probably have earned a stop+go penalty for the next round.

But again, the stewards system only works if people report incidents.


Since you asked in a different thread, but I don't want to clutter it, I'll answer this here (from my own personal opinion only, I cannot speak on behalf of the stewards panel):
That's what happens, when you don't strictly penalize divebombs and allow a f'ed up netiquette in racing. In case Tempez gets a penalty for his dive, I'd like to know why there wasn't a penalty for the first incident here: https://apexonlineracing.com/community/threads/tier-2-round-2-3-incidents-moved.63219/ - thx!
The first incident there was the very definition of a 'racing incident', if a close call with a small bump, but no positions lost or gained is not a 'racing incident' then there would be no reason for that concept to even exist. If he kept the place, or even tried to keep it, or caused you to spin then it would have been different.

You handled it perfectly, pretty much exactly how I described I'd have hoped to handle the 'Part 2' at Monza. Its regrettable that it happened in the first place, but even real, professional race drivers make mistakes and there is occasional contact, to penalise each and every contact regardless of nothing bad happening after it would not be realistic.

However, regardless of it being judged a racing incident, the stewards are still aware it happened, and if there was a pattern where things like that happened regularly with the same driver then I expect the level of 'understanding' would decrease.
 

DaveGaming

Formula 4 Test Driver
Sep 5, 2018
89
62
The first incident there was the very definition of a 'racing incident', if a close call with a small bump, but no positions lost or gained is not a 'racing incident' then there would be no reason for that concept to even exist. If he kept the place, or even tried to keep it, or caused you to spin then it would have been different.
So as I stated: You need to get wrecked or be the sitting duck while defending to let people dive you. If that seems right to you, I have nothing to add. But there is your answer on what goes wrong and why there was ongoing opportunistic attacks and collisions. It is not because of me don't making inquiries. None of the ongoing collisions would have been prevented when I made a steward inquiry. The root of the problem is what you define as racing. That motivates people to careless driving and ultimately to people getting wrecked. If you the driving you see in this thread, keep on. But at that point it is just our opinions on racing that differs. And I am tired of waiting more than half the season until something probably finally happens concerning this issue.