League future ideas/concepts & direction? | ApexOnlineRacing.com

League future ideas/concepts & direction?


Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Now I've come with the different points system suggestions and have decided to post this here for all those that are interested, so that they can also add there thoughts.

However I have also come with extra this/ideas & concepts I would like to put forward to the co-ords and everyone, so I will be doing a few separate posts here going into detail of my suggestions.
As surely the best way to encourage drivers to keep racing and encourage others to join, is a better clear transparency of future ideas between the co-ords and the drivers and for them to fully engage with each other.

Ok I'll start of with the points systems, now we all know the issues we had after 2 rounds when the points standing were going to cause many issues due to unforeseen circumstances I think this was caused in part by using a 3 tier points system for 2 rooms, however we would probably have had the same issues in some way.

Right first suggestion for a 2 tier points system (tier 2 bolded):
  1. 50 - 1. 25
  2. 44 - 2. 21
  3. 40 - 3. 18
  4. 36 - 4. 16
  5. 33 - 5. 14
  6. 30 - 6. 12
  7. 27 - 7. 10
  8. 25 - 8. 8
  9. 23 - 9. 7
  10. 21 - 10. 6
  11. 19 - 11. 5
  12. 18 - 12. 4
  13. 17 - 13. 3
  14. 16 - 14. 2
  15. 15 - 15. 1
  16. 14 - 16. 0
And a 3 tier points system:
(T1) (T2) (T3)
  1. 75 -- 1. 47 -- 1. 25
  2. 68 -- 2. 43 -- 2. 22
  3. 64 -- 3. 40 -- 3. 20
  4. 60 -- 4. 37 -- 4. 18
  5. 56 -- 5. 34 -- 5. 16
  6. 53 -- 6. 31 -- 6. 14
  7. 50 -- 7. 28 -- 7. 12
  8. 47 -- 8. 25 -- 8. 10
  9. 44 -- 9. 23 -- 9. 8
  10. 42 -- 10. 21 -- 10. 7
  11. 40 -- 11. 19 -- 11. 6
  12. 38 -- 12. 17 -- 12. 5
  13. 36 -- 13. 15 -- 13. 4
  14. 34 -- 14. 14 -- 14. 3
  15. 32 -- 15. 13 -- 15. 2
  16. 30 -- 16. 12 -- 16.1
(In both these systems the bonus point for pole and fastest lap currently used would be scrapped, so to not potentially mess up or slightly skew the balance of the points)

(*Co-ords I can make minor alternations to it if your looking for a max of 15 drivers per lobby)

Now I'm sure a few will question why winning a room in the tier below is worth equal to 8th place to the tier above and the answers simple, if a promotion/demotion is used each round then its gives the promoted driver(s) a very small deficit to make up to the drivers higher in the standings, but it also gives them a chance to stay in a higher tier for more then 1 round.

Though I have to be honest I found it very hard to find a good balance to the 3 tier points system, if the co-ords wanted to avoid a future situation where one of the fastest drivers in the league dsc's the first race but wins the second in the top tier or vice-versa, then in a 3 tier points system theres no reasonable way to keep it balanced.

The biggest issue is how many points the winner or podium finishers get in the top tier unless I made it 90pts+ that would be the only way to guarantee that what happened to me for example wouldn't happen again, however that would mean in turn potentially the championship being easily decided a couple rounds before and big gaps at the top of the standings.

But since we've not even got close to 3 tiers since Season 1, I think the 2 tier points system above should serve its purpose fine and if future leagues are lucky enough to have 3 tiers then we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
 
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Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Promotion/Demotion between tiers:

I think theres needs to be some kind of way for drivers to move up through the tiers if they are indeed to quick for the tier they initially put in and I think in some ways I inadvertently hit a good idea, the more I've thought of something like a shootout/qualifying TT to decide who goes up and down between tiers is surely the best way to give those involved at both ends of the table at least the opportunity to either stay in there tier or move up.

It doesn't have to be a 5 minute shootout but I think a live lobby with all drivers involved together is the way to go, but I do think that without doubt there should be a automatic promotion place given to the highest scoring driver from each round in tier 2 (& or 3), as its only fair they get rewarded.

As for how many go up and down I think 3 drivers should, so with 1 spot already going to the highest scorer from the lower tier(s) that would mean only 2 spots would be available, I think the 2nd & 3rd highest scorers would deserve there chance, as for those from the higher tier no one would be automatically demoted - this way if a very fast driver had a dsc one race but didn't the other, or weren't able to race in a later round they would have a chance to keep there place.

Depending on how many drivers are in the standings, which I guess how many involved could in theory change during the season) however I think that the bottom 3 drivers from the higher tier should be automatically involved in fighting for there place, which would mean 5 drivers competing for 2 spots - quite simply really fastest 2 drivers get to race in the higher tier that round, the 3 that miss out drop down to the tier below that round.

That's my thoughts on using promotion/demotion each round.
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Cut off point for drivers moving between tiers?

This could very well be hard to get a general agreement on, also theres always the possibility like the current season that it could end up 1 room and everyone in the same championship.

With the first point of drivers moving between tiers (eg: promotion/demotion) then probably the best time to do it is either middle of the season or not to far after that, so if a league has 8 rounds then after round 4 or 5 drivers would then become locked into that tier (elite, pro or semi-pro), this way all drivers know who there battling with for the championship or just for the final standings.

But this leads into the issue of what happens if the league drops to 16 drivers or less, I think not just the co-ords but everyone has to be in agreement what to do if/when something like that happens.

I guess one way to do it would be to still give everyone Tier 1 points including those that are moved up from the tier below - not ideal I know but everyone will still know which championship there in.
The other way, keep it 2 separate rooms on the night obviously it'll mean drivers from different tiers aren't potentially affecting each others race but it will mean smaller fields.

For both example above there positives and negatives, as there will be with other suggestions the difficulty for co-ords and everyone involved will be coming to a general agreement.
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Suggestion for a change in the scheduled seasons calendar:

With all these question marks currently and a fair few unknowns for future seasons, instead of jumping straight on to Season 5 a couple weeks after the end of this current season, I would like to put forward an exhibition series (off-season cup) as a way try out new formats and test a new points system and any other major changes.

And since S5 is planned to be one make what better way to give everyone a taster then to have a series of 4 different one make/car races, and with a little bit of testing yesterday and trying out multiple cars and tracks I have come up with a shortlist of 6 car & track combo's.

The idea would be for co-ords & drivers to select 4 out of the 6. (using a vote & personally I think 2 out of the 6 should be automatically in anyway)

Ok here is what I've come up:

Lago Maggiore Center - Daihatsu Copen VGT


Tokyo Expressway South Inner Loop - Subaru WRX Isle of Man Time Attack Car'16


Fisherman's Ranch - undecided Gr.B Rally car

1548470429907.jpeg

KDP Miyabi - GT Racing Kart 125 Shifter


Special Stage Route X - SRT Tomahawk X VGT


Monza (No Chicane) - Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo



Again I imagine some people may choke/spit out what they were eating/drinking at some my suggestions but bear in mind I wanted to try and really mix things up, these are all tracks we've not raced at as well as the cars.

Each combo brings a completely different challenge:

The VGT Copen at LM center should give great close racing at sensible speeds.

We've never raced at Tokyo Expressway and out of all the Tokyo Expressway circuits, this one I've picked should actually provide good opportunities to overtake plus that Subaru TA car is a lot of fun to driver around here.

Fisherman's Ranch yes a full on Rally race, this would be something new for all of us so why not have a first ever Rally race?

Again something completely different and new again we've not have a Go-Kart race? (I did try other tracks but Miyabi I feel would create the best racing for all I would say)

Route X and the VGT Tomahawk quite simply this would be the ultimate high speed battle and again something new. (with everyone racing default settings these cars reach 370mph by themselves!)

Lastly Monza and the Amuse, in previous games this car was reasonable to drive but in this game this car is a bit of a beast and very tough to tame I tried soft racing tyres with it and it was still a handful, its the last suggestion because I have doubts over the racing it would create.


With regards to fuel and tyre wear well for Go Karts and Rally there is no way to enable tyre wear or fuel so these races would be strategy-less, the others 4 though would have some kind of tyre wear and fuel usage, as for race format I feel each would have to be slightly different. With races with no tyre wear or fuel then maybe shorter feature and sprint could be used equally even the Route X race wouldn't need to be to long either just to avoid potential long lonely drives, but there plenty of options available.

So there you go guys my idea for a 4 race exhibition series (off season cup), using the exhibition series I think is the best way to test out any new things co-ords before Season 5.

Also moving Season 5 later would mean that it can be a 8 (or 9) round season instead of 7, and the co-ords can go on a earlier and longer summer break.;)

Ok that's everything guys, (I hope my exhibition series idea will be taken seriously) I'll now tag the co-ords and a couple others so feel free to spread this to the other members of this league. (so I don't have to tag 15 people lol)
@Delaney @Hasnain @BL99DY-NINE @Ashracer2011 @TubbyPhantom
 
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TubbyPhantom

Formula 3 Reserve Driver
Dec 2, 2018
216
324
Suggestion for a change in the scheduled seasons calendar:

With all these question marks currently and a fair few unknowns for future seasons, instead of jumping straight on to Season 5 a couple weeks after the end of this current season, I would like to put forward an exhibition series (off-season cup) as a way try out new formats and test a new points system and any other major changes.

And since S5 is planned to be one make what better way to give everyone a taster then to have a series of 4 different one make/car races, and with a little bit of testing yesterday and trying out multiple cars and tracks I have come up with a shortlist of 6 car & track combo's.

The idea would be for co-ords & drivers to select 4 out of the 6. (using a vote & personally I think 2 out of the 6 should be automatically in anyway)

Ok here is what I've come up:

Lago Maggiore Center - Daihatsu Copen VGT


Tokyo Expressway South Inner Loop - Subaru WRX Isle of Man Time Attack Car'16


Fisherman's Ranch - undecided Gr.B Rally car

View attachment 70278
KDP Miyabi - GT Racing Kart 125 Shifter


Special Stage Route X - SRT Tomahawk X VGT


Monza (No Chicane) - Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo



Again I imagine some people may choke/spit out what they were eating/drinking at some my suggestions but bear in mind I wanted to try and really mix things up, these are all tracks we've not raced at as well as the cars.

Each combo brings a completely different challenge:

The VGT Copen at LM center should give great close racing at sensible speeds.

We've never raced at Tokyo Expressway and out of all the Tokyo Expressway circuits, this one I've picked should actually provide good opportunities to overtake plus that Subaru TA car is a lot of fun to driver around here.

Fisherman's Ranch yes a full on Rally race, this would be something new for all of us so why not have a first ever Rally race?

Again something completely different and new again we've not have a Go-Kart race? (I did try other tracks but Miyabi I feel would create the best racing for all I would say)

Route X and the VGT Tomahawk quite simply this would be the ultimate high speed battle and again something new. (with everyone racing default settings these cars reach 370mph by themselves!)

Lastly Monza and the Amuse, in previous games this car was reasonable to drive but in this game this car is a bit of a beast and very tough to tame I tried soft racing tyres with it and it was still a handful, its the last suggestion because I have doubts over the racing it would create.


With regards to fuel and tyre wear well for Go Karts and Rally there is no way to enable tyre wear or fuel so these races would be strategy-less, the others 4 though would have some kind of tyre wear and fuel usage, as for race format I feel each would have to be slightly different. With races with no tyre wear or fuel then maybe shorter feature and sprint could be used equally even the Route X race wouldn't need to be to long either just to avoid potential long lonely drives, but there plenty of options available.

So there you go guys my idea for a 4 race exhibition series (off season cup), using the exhibition series I think is the best way to test out any new things co-ords before Season 5.

Also moving Season 5 later would mean that it can be a 8 (or 9) round season instead of 7, and the co-ords can go on a earlier and longer summer break.;)

Ok that's everything guys, (I hope my exhibition series idea will be taken seriously) I'll now tag the co-ords and a couple others so feel free to spread this to the other members of this league. (so I don't have to tag 15 people lol)
@Delaney @Hasnain @BL99DY-NINE @Ashracer2011 @TubbyPhantom
Have to say, this is a well thought out idea and I like it!!
 

Ashracer2011

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jan 14, 2014
927
455
Think I'd avoid Special stage X as its so boring :ROFLMAO: not really any racing takes place. As for the rest of the cars I can see some of them working. As we discussed in our messages you've got some good points that are covered.

Time Trial "Test"
As for the TT times, a better track is required than Tsukuba which isn't long enough to have a good measure of ability difference, something like the Nurburgring GP, Brand Hatch or Dragon tail would work, I range of corner styles and circuit challenges. Also the type of car e.g. using a Rear Wheel drive car rather than the safety of a 4-Wheel.

Points:
I think definitely the points system needs reviewing, but to does this it requires a bit more thought, additionally your system doesn't take into account a sprint race.

Promo / Relegation leagues
In theory this could be a great idea, but we need to have a larger pool of drivers to make it work. While we are barely keeping open two rooms its purpose isn't really able to capture what it would be if we were running 3/4 or 5 rooms with more drivers able to move between the boundaries. Currently as I see it there are 3/4 drivers who are going up and then back down in alternate weeks, basically in "no man's land" between tiers.

It would be interesting to know there opinions if they would prefer to have a battle of 4 drivers in Room 2 for a full season?? or be moved up into Room 1 for a race then back down to Room 2 while there championship rivals are doing the opposite pattern of that, so essentially they barely actually race each other on track, only for points in the standings.

For the current leagues I would like to see a focus on delivering full rooms of drivers at least 12/13 strong as a minimum, before opening two rooms. In the long term if the difficulty of holding two rooms becomes clear then we should run a dual championship in one full room, consisting of drivers split by ability to those who are closest to there pace, this has been done previously so it works as a compromise solution.

Performance Handicap:
There seems some anti-handicap critics, which I don't believe really understand the point of what this would achieve. The idea of making the top 3 drivers from either the previous race Feature before Sprint or Feature from the week before is not a difficult change to make, it would not only promote anyone who finishes further down the grid but its also a balance on performance for the top drivers in both tiers.

By using a tyre 'disadvantage' you will create a more diverse championship battle and it will also make it more difficult for one driver to get a big lead in the points tables as they will be forced to work harder to get as much points as possible while having there pace advantage nullified, it also allows the drivers who find themself stuck in the midfield to enjoy the chance of getting a race win or podium each week as they know that the faster drivers will not be able to just cruise up and overtake them on the same tyres.

The rules are simple for this:
  1. Top 3 use the Hard or Medium Compound (Track specific).
  2. Mandatory pitstop is required (With Tyre Change).
  3. For Sprint Races - You must use the single compound that is designated as the Handicap tyre.
  4. For Feature Races - Use the handicap tyre once e.g change in a pit stop or start on that tyre.
  5. Punishment if theirs failure to follow rules - Disqualification and Points Removed.
As for the need to check the replays, generally it will be obvious when you use spectator mode who's on the right tyre, there's only 3 drivers who should be on the Handicap Tyre. During the race if suddenly a handicap driver starts setting fast laptimes or you see them change to the wrong tyre this is obvious.
Replay checking takes a few minutes and anyone who breaks the rules should be immediately disqualified as punishment.

We previous ran Handicap tyre rules on Super GT, GT3 and Touring cars championships back on GT6 and GT5, once people realise that this is for the benefit of racing not to just batter the top guys every week everyone will see the point. The alternative is to add weight to peoples cars but as we don't have that option the tyres are the best and easiest performance tools to change.
 
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Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
Think I'd avoid Special stage X as its so boring :ROFLMAO: not really any racing takes place.
Well I did choose the fastest car in the game, plus I don't think the majority would be bored as there'll have to be focused at all times, especially going 2 or even 3 wide on the banking at those speeds, as it takes some considerable skill to make it work without causing a massive crash.

As for the rest of the cars I can see some of them working. As we discussed in our messages you've got some good points that are covered.
Anyway I did offer up 6 combo's so there is choice, but if the co-ords do look into a series like this they might want to do different cars and combos though I strongly think the first 2 car/track combo I suggested have great racing potential. (plus seeing that drs wing work as you drive is quite something)

Time Trial "Test"
As for the TT times, a better track is required than Tsukuba which isn't long enough to have a good measure of ability difference, something like the Nurburgring GP, Brand Hatch or Dragon tail would work, I range of corner styles and circuit challenges. Also the type of car e.g. using a Rear Wheel drive car rather than the safety of a 4-Wheel.
I can understand the point you made of a longer circuit and tougher car, but the co-ords have to try different combos each season, they won't have that luxury for S5 other then choosing the circuit.

Points:
I think definitely the points system needs reviewing, but to does this it requires a bit more thought, additionally your system doesn't take into account a sprint race.
I don't understand what you mean Ash, of course I made it to take into account the sprint race, I've lowered the points that the midfield and lower drivers can earn so that, for example winning a Tier 1 race (in the 2 tier format using what I suggested above) is equal to 2 8th place finishes, currently in our tier - 1 win isn't even equal to 2 16th place finishes.

As I said you can't raise the top position points for Tier 1 too high and increase the points gaps to the midfield and lower, if you do there is a serious risk of a big imbalance occurring, not just in tier 1 but the open tier system itself.

And with the open tier system, its clear to me it's a very tough task to find a good balance so that we avoid major issues like we've had, I think its doable with a 2 tier points system but when you raise it to 3 tiers then finding some kind of balance becomes very difficult, but if the co-ords want to keep this kind of points system and for it to work with minimal issues, then its needs well thought out rules to go with it.

If we do try out a new points system and it doesn't work well, then unfortunately the only place to go back to would be fixed tiers before the start of each season, like season 1.

Now I don't have any issue with anyone criticising my ideas (as I know and accept that everyone can have different view points on things) but if you think a idea of mine isn't good, then please offer an alternative to it, so come on Ash - lets see what points system you would suggest.

Promo / Relegation leagues
In theory this could be a great idea, but we need to have a larger pool of drivers to make it work. While we are barely keeping open two rooms its purpose isn't really able to capture what it would be if we were running 3/4 or 5 rooms with more drivers able to move between the boundaries. Currently as I see it there are 3/4 drivers who are going up and then back down in alternate weeks, basically in "no man's land" between tiers.

It would be interesting to know there opinions if they would prefer to have a battle of 4 drivers in Room 2 for a full season?? or be moved up into Room 1 for a race then back down to Room 2 while there championship rivals are doing the opposite pattern of that, so essentially they barely actually race each other on track, only for points in the standings.

For the current leagues I would like to see a focus on delivering full rooms of drivers at least 12/13 strong as a minimum, before opening two rooms. In the long term if the difficulty of holding two rooms becomes clear then we should run a dual championship in one full room, consisting of drivers split by ability to those who are closest to there pace, this has been done previously so it works as a compromise solution.
To be honest heading into the start of S4 I wasn't 100% sure how Promotion/Demotion would work, but the original method used probably wasn't the best but I think it is necessary though if the league is using the open tier system.
Ash you have to allow drivers from lowers tiers the opportunity to drive in a higher tier if they've earned it I feel, but to simply move 1 or 2 up and down based on championship position was flawed.
Its why I'm very much for putting promotion/demotion into the drivers own hands as such, to have some sort of pre-qualifying amongst themselves at least then those drivers themselves know afterwards, that they were either not quick enough to drive a high tier or were, and not left wondering what if.

As for fuller rooms of course everyone wants 15/16 driver races but it is what it is, but I can't honestly imagine anyone enjoying a 4 car race for a whole season, also if you have one of those drivers missing one night another pulls out your left 2 or 3, surely everyone involved in that type of race would get bored, as a very small field isn't fun especially over a 40 minute feature race for example.

With 2 championships in one room, for me that's tough to call I mean what if one or two of the drivers from the lower tier is finishing ahead of a couple of drivers from the higher tier regularly, those from the lower tier would then be calling for there promotion...
I think its going to be pretty interesting at Suzuka this Thursday as we should be one full room for the first time and everyone is going to be in the same race and points system, I wonder how many of the regular Tier 2 drivers will finish ahead of Tier 1's?

Performance Handicap:
There seems some anti-handicap critics, which I don't believe really understand the point of what this would achieve. The idea of making the top 3 drivers from either the previous race Feature before Sprint or Feature from the week before is not a difficult change to make, it would not only promote anyone who finishes further down the grid but its also a balance on performance for the top drivers in both tiers.

By using a tyre 'disadvantage' you will create a more diverse championship battle and it will also make it more difficult for one driver to get a big lead in the points tables as they will be forced to work harder to get as much points as possible while having there pace advantage nullified, it also allows the drivers who find themself stuck in the midfield to enjoy the chance of getting a race win or podium each week as they know that the faster drivers will not be able to just cruise up and overtake them on the same tyres.

The rules are simple for this:
  1. Top 3 use the Hard or Medium Compound (Track specific).
  2. Mandatory pitstop is required (With Tyre Change).
  3. For Sprint Races - You must use the single compound that is designated as the Handicap tyre.
  4. For Feature Races - Use the handicap tyre once e.g change in a pit stop or start on that tyre.
  5. Punishment if theirs failure to follow rules - Disqualification and Points Removed.
As for the need to check the replays, generally it will be obvious when you use spectator mode who's on the right tyre, there's only 3 drivers who should be on the Handicap Tyre. During the race if suddenly a handicap driver starts setting fast laptimes or you see them change to the wrong tyre this is obvious.
Replay checking takes a few minutes and anyone who breaks the rules should be immediately disqualified as punishment.

We previous ran Handicap tyre rules on Super GT, GT3 and Touring cars championships back on GT6 and GT5, once people realise that this is for the benefit of racing not to just batter the top guys every week everyone will see the point. The alternative is to add weight to peoples cars but as we don't have that option the tyres are the best and easiest performance tools to change.
Personally I think the reason why this kind of idea isn't liked is because in general it makes things a lot less simpler and most importantly I believe people want to earn there result on as even as terms as possible, not be completely gifted to them through a tyre disparity gimmick.

For example if I just beat someone because they were forced to use slower tyres I wouldn't exactly feel like I earned/deserved it.

If you genuinely want to increase the chances of different winners/podium finishers then shortening the sprint race is the best way to go, (which is what I suggested for S5) besides reverse grids in the sprint is going to be a lot tougher next season as everyone will be racing the same car.

But if the co-ords want to seriously look into some kind of performance handicap, then save it for Season 6.
 
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Ashracer2011

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jan 14, 2014
927
455
I think you've got some fantastic ideas and its great to have someone with so much enthusiasm for expressing ideas as you've done many times before here, however actually bringing them to reality is a whole different story in the real world for the likes of Delaney, Bloody & Hasnain who end up doing the work.

Not only do you have to carry out significant work to make sure that these things actually work, this is not including the massive work also required to re-write all the forum posts and future templates for races........ you can't then start changing all the goal posts and rules once you realise you've made a massive mistake, people sign up and look to the League Management as a cornerstone of stability and good decision making.

Honestly Wobbie, the day you run a league forum you'll understand that making lots of major changes is not as easy as talking about it. This will be supported by @Delaney @BL99DY-NINE and anyone else who's been part of the AOR or previous ARL league management teams.

I ran ARL GT then AOR GT for 6 years in total, so I do have an idea of what I'm talking about surprisingly :ROFLMAO:. And Christ I've seen every tom, dick and harry pass through, as well as every party trick, ramming tactic and rage quitting 12 year old who loved nascar so much he called himself NASCARSucks :LOL:


I'll answer your points below::)

Well I did choose the fastest car in the game, plus I don't think the majority would be bored as there'll have to be focused at all times, especially going 2 or even 3 wide on the banking at those speeds, as it takes some considerable skill to make it work without causing a massive crash.
The reason I stated its boring is because we've tried it in a practice race of about 5 or 6 of us a couple of weeks ago, I'm sorry to say everyone in the room said this is fairly boring once the novelty wore quickly off.:sleep:

The length of time down each straight is pretty long, yes okay there was some slipstreaming, yes its a fast car o_O400mph +, but after 1 full lap everyone had enough.... A 40 minute race of doing that will go down about as well as a concrete party balloon, yes people might attend as they signed up to a championship with it, (that's just loyalty) but paint will prove more inviting to watch dry. We did use SRT Tomahawks in this practice race also.

This type of race track might work if we did a 1 night social event, you could run a couple of laps then move onto something else. But a whole night of racing?....

Anyway I did offer up 6 combo's so there is choice, but if the co-ords do look into a series like this they might want to do different cars and combos though I strongly think the first 2 car/track combo I suggested have great racing potential. (plus seeing that drs wing work as you drive is quite something)
Please Note, I didn't have anything wrong with your choice cars except the Tomahawk/Stage X, we've finished the Xmas cup which was a more structured version of that, in the sense it used Race Car categories. Gr.1, Gr.2 and so on. Mixing things up is a great way to add some spice and variety, adding to this with some different cars to just "race" categories would be a nice addition.

I can understand the point you made of a longer circuit and tougher car, but the co-ords have to try different combos each season, they won't have that luxury for S5 other then choosing the circuit.
Again I did not say there was a "Circuit" that was the golden sorting machine.... Although there is a point to make about common sense and making things easier on the coordinators as well as consistent & reliable data though using a small group of circuits or even just one. If the Coordinator team choose to run it for every new driver sign up, rather than every new season we can form a TT database, this could be updated by a total refresh after a few seasons have passed while new drivers are added when they join.

In regards to the car, doesn't have to be a "tougher car", it can be more representative of the most common variant of drivetrain used, e.g. Rear Wheel Drive.

No point in saying you can race and do a lap time of a 55s at Tsukuba If you can't drive a RWD or FR car because your unable to control your throttle inputs and brakes accordingly, where as a 4WD car masks over some of these aspects due to its stability, although specifically more a problem at Tsukuba more than other tracks I must add.


I don't understand what you mean Ash, of course I made it to take into account the sprint race, I've lowered the points that the midfield and lower drivers can earn so that, for example winning a Tier 1 race (in the 2 tier format using what I suggested above) is equal to 2 8th place finishes, currently in our tier - 1 win isn't even equal to 2 16th place finishes.

As I said you can't raise the top position points for Tier 1 too high and increase the points gaps to the midfield and lower, if you do there is a serious risk of a big imbalance occurring, not just in tier 1 but the open tier system itself.

And with the open tier system, its clear to me it's a very tough task to find a good balance so that we avoid major issues like we've had, I think its doable with a 2 tier points system but when you raise it to 3 tiers then finding some kind of balance becomes very difficult, but if the co-ords want to keep this kind of points system and for it to work with minimal issues, then its needs well thought out rules to go with it.

If we do try out a new points system and it doesn't work well, then unfortunately the only place to go back to would be fixed tiers before the start of each season, like season 1.

Now I don't have any issue with anyone criticising my ideas (as I know and accept that everyone can have different view points on things) but if you think a idea of mine isn't good, then please offer an alternative to it, so come on Ash - lets see what points system you would suggest.

  • I understand what your trying to achieve, but the facts are you saying that Room 2 Drivers racing for the overall championship with Room 1 or a Room 2 Championship? You can't have all the cake and eat it at the same time.

  • The question is; should the Sprint Race of 50% time value, be worth the same amount of points as the 40 Minute Feature? This however is a discussion for another time...

  • A possible permutation is that a Room 2 Drivers could out score anyone (For Examples Sake) from 5th to 16th in Room 1, yet they are racing against competition who aren't considered to be the same calibre as Room 1, they could be promoted and demoted several times in the season but ultimately end up in Room 2, so do they finish Room 1 as 6th place or Room 2 as 1st? Or do we say this is one continuous race room despite not being in the same race as the other drivers in Room 1 finishing 8th or lower. The only alternative is to use a race time as a Time Trial and say we'll order everyone based on the best race time descending order?

  • Are you saying that the rest of Room 2 is the same calibre as Room 1 from 8th to 16th? Your system is based I guess on not running full rooms and having 10/11 drivers in the room, but once thats broken it has a massive flaw in it, because you're not going to have 7 Drivers moving up and down from each room, do you see what I'm saying?:)

  • Any multi-tier system using numbers as you've shown and also demonstrated the flaw in by, the fact you can't expand it past 2 tiers without having to reset all the values completely again. Its a mass of numbers and complications with far to many variations and changes needed to keep working should we grow bigger insize and its not needed if we decrease in size. A simpler system would outcompete as its based on the standard 1 room format.

My Question is: Would you rather have just 1 Championship? or Have 2 Championships? for the guys who won't have a chance beating the fastest drivers can have a chance at winning something for once and not just making up the numbers? From a competition point of view this is more of a spectacle than competing for 10th place out of 25 overall.

Now I don't have any issue with anyone criticising my ideas (as I know and accept that everyone can have different view points on things) but if you think a idea of mine isn't good, then please offer an alternative to it, so come on Ash - lets see what points system you would suggest.
  • Anyone can create a points system by throwing a bunch of numbers increments apart, that's not the point I'm trying to make. You could have 1000 variations and still not find the perfect one.
  • The point is using what makes sense, the more complicated the more to go wrong, the more people don't understand and the more it looks like a confusing mess.
  • Let's not reinvent the wheel, let improve it and keep it rolling in a more efficient way.
  • One clear point to make is that we should reward every finishing position with Points 1st to 16th so you take something away from each event.
Good Article on F1's views about a 2020 change for 1st to 15th points - https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/f1-considering-new-points-system-for-2020-20180709
The only choice is to Simplify; and remove the active tier system in due to the fact it's over complication is just resulting in more confusion and work for the Coordinators.

Both Tiers should use the same Point system, Why?? Because it's the simplest and best way and works everywhere else. Don't need to make an example of some numbers as there's plenty of versions already available from F1, WEC and any other "Championship" based competition. We take one of those tweak it to fit in what we have e.g. 16 drivers, there's plenty of systems we've used in the past available in the Forum Archive.

Before you say your devaluing Room 1s Points numbers allowing Room 2 to score more or the same, does F2 devalue F1? Does F3 or F4 Devalue F2 & F1? All use the same Points system. Room 1 is the premier Room, I think it's fairly obvious what that means. Room 2 is the feeder tier up to Room 1.

Sadly we can't have it so everyone's a winner, Sport is results driven at its core. Ideally Room 1 is the best Drivers in terms of race craft, gamesmanship, and so on, but performance is the differentiator in achieving these results, just like a 100 meter race the fastest comes first.

The tier systems need to be looked at as a longer term investment to compete in to move up, by having separate championships you earn the right to be promoted and those who failed to stay in Room 1 will be relegated and have the chance for promotion again next season, not a couple of races in or bad results e.g. Crashes, DSC, Illness, Holidays and so on...

You should earn the right through hard work and delivering results, this is your reward for Success in Driving Well Across a Season, Beating your opponents fair and square, it also is the seed for people to improve there driving, they have a goal to rise up to the highest tier.

As for Fastest Lap and Pole Points, I don't think these should be removed, they can prove vital in deciding championships or recovery drives or to anyone at the back of the grid to pit for fresh tyres and give it a go.


Ash you have to allow drivers from lowers tiers the opportunity to drive in a higher tier if they've earned it I feel, but to simply move 1 or 2 up and down based on championship position was flawed.
Its why I'm very much for putting promotion/demotion into the drivers own hands as such, to have some sort of pre-qualifying amongst themselves at least then those drivers themselves know afterwards, that they were either not quick enough to drive a high tier or were, and not left wondering what if.
The opportunity is earned across a good season, Drivers in the AOR F1 leagues wait 21 Races/ weeks to get promoted, our seasons last a lot less than half this so staying in Room 2 is hardly hurting you, unless a driver is winning every race by lapping everyone which clearly shows you're to fast for that room.


Another point to make is: The chance is given at the start of the season using the Time Trial to gain your placement in the league in Room 1, this is the easiest way to move up if you want it so badly.

With 2 championships in one room, for me that's tough to call I mean what if one or two of the drivers from the lower tier is finishing ahead of a couple of drivers from the higher tier regularly, those from the lower tier would then be calling for their promotion...
I think its going to be pretty interesting at Suzuka this Thursday as we should be one full room for the first time and everyone is going to be in the same race and points system, I wonder how many of the regular Tier 2 drivers will finish ahead of Tier 1's?
This was an example of a doomsday scenario solution:cry:, it does work as I've ran it for a full season a few years ago. The same works in the real world with GT-Pro and GT-AM, LMP and GT3 all in the same race together. As long as people stay respectful and don't have accidents it's fairly easy.

Personally I think the reason why this kind of idea isn't liked is because in general it makes things a lot less simpler and most importantly I believe people want to earn their result on as even as terms as possible, not be completely gifted to them through a tyre disparity gimmick.

For example if I just beat someone because they were forced to use slower tyres I wouldn't exactly feel like I earned/deserved it.

If you genuinely want to increase the chances of different winners/podium finishers then shortening the sprint race is the best way to go, (which is what I suggested for S5) besides reverse grids in the sprint is going to be a lot tougher next season as everyone will be racing the same car.
For a "gimmick" it worked for over 5+ season on AOR GT6 and before on GT5, I think if we'd had this for Gr.4s we'd be looking at a tight championship battle with a lot more drivers within reach of the top position, also less likely to see multiple podiums each week from the same faster drivers and more midfield runners able to mount title or championship podium challenges.

BTCC runs a gimmick by adding Weight Ballast to cars, unfortunately it's not possible to add Ballast so lets take away some grip to achieve the same thing. :geek:

Yes its not favourable to the fastest drivers such as yourself, me, Hasnain and the GP1 Boys, but the fact is that rest of the guys deserve the chance to win races and have podiums without getting completely lucky that none of the usual feature race culprits makes it through the pack and are able to catch them before the 20 mins is up.

If the Sprint race was shorted I'd agree there's no point in it, but 20 mins is long enough to make up any small lead.

The problem lies as the pace difference between the front runners and midfield is too big, 1s - 2s on the same compounds if it was much closer there wouldn't be a need for a Tyre Handicap, as you'd be racing Apples for Apples not Apples for Pears. :p


I'm like to see the playing field leveled especially when you have a few drivers who are obviously Fair Bit quicker which usually happens. We all come to race for fun, have great battles, to win or get good results by beating someone else fairly. :)

Making the top guys have to use racecraft to get past because they don't have as much grip as they would normally find on the same tyre as the slower guys, brings there pace more into line.
It makes the fast guys have to actually race people rather than blasting past on the brakes it will give the not so quick guys the chance to defend and later attack again, the faster drivers will eventually make up places as they're usually more consistent but they cannot dominate the sprint race this way.



I think I've covered enough there. I'm sure you've got plenty more to add. But to avoid this getting out of hand let's agree to disagree.:)
 
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Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,570
2,242
I think you've got some fantastic ideas and its great to have someone with so much enthusiasm for expressing ideas as you've done many times before here, however actually bringing them to reality is a whole different story in the real world for the likes of Delaney, Bloody & Hasnain who end up doing the work.

Not only do you have to carry out significant work to make sure that these things actually work, this is not including the massive work also required to re-write all the forum posts and future templates for races........ you can't then start changing all the goal posts and rules once you realise you've made a massive mistake, people sign up and look to the League Management as a cornerstone of stability and good decision making.

Honestly Wobbie, the day you run a league forum you'll understand that making lots of major changes is not as easy as talking about it. This will be supported by @Delaney @BL99DY-NINE and anyone else who's been part of the AOR or previous ARL league management teams.
Ash you don't have to tell me that, I'm not oblivious as to how things are suppose to work in leagues and the running of them.

But anyway when I put forward all these suggestions & ideas, I did so with the idea that they would/could be tested out in a off season cup or 'exhibition series', as it would be the best way for the co-ords to try out not just any of my ideas but theres or anyone else's as well.

I'll answer your points below::)



The reason I stated its boring is because we've tried it in a practice race of about 5 or 6 of us a couple of weeks ago, I'm sorry to say everyone in the room said this is fairly boring once the novelty wore quickly off.:sleep:

The length of time down each straight is pretty long, yes okay there was some slipstreaming, yes its a fast car o_O400mph +, but after 1 full lap everyone had enough.... A 40 minute race of doing that will go down about as well as a concrete party balloon, yes people might attend as they signed up to a championship with it, (that's just loyalty) but paint will prove more inviting to watch dry. We did use SRT Tomahawks in this practice race also.

This type of race track might work if we did a 1 night social event, you could run a couple of laps then move onto something else. But a whole night of racing?....
There is a phrase that comes to mind - different horses for different courses, I get the feeling your not a big fan of oval racing in general.;)

But I did say that in my original post:
even the Route X race wouldn't need to be to long either just to avoid potential long lonely drives, but there plenty of options available.
I can fully understand and appreciate that a 40 minute race at Route X won't appeal to some drivers but on the flipside it will appeal to others, though having a shorter feature and sprint could be used and besides if you add fuel and tyre wear modifiers you can certainly give drivers a lot to think about even at Route X.

Again I did not say there was a "Circuit" that was the golden sorting machine.... Although there is a point to make about common sense and making things easier on the coordinators as well as consistent & reliable data though using a small group of circuits or even just one. If the Coordinator team choose to run it for every new driver sign up, rather than every new season we can form a TT database, this could be updated by a total refresh after a few seasons have passed while new drivers are added when they join.

In regards to the car, doesn't have to be a "tougher car", it can be more representative of the most common variant of drivetrain used, e.g. Rear Wheel Drive.

No point in saying you can race and do a lap time of a 55s at Tsukuba If you can't drive a RWD or FR car because your unable to control your throttle inputs and brakes accordingly, where as a 4WD car masks over some of these aspects due to its stability, although specifically more a problem at Tsukuba more than other tracks I must add.
I think the co-ords are caught between a rock and a hard place with tier placement every pre-season, as you do get a regular influx of new drivers and TT is I guess the only way to help gauge there pace, driver placement would be a lot easier if we had the same drivers sign up and race every season but it never happens.

  • I understand what your trying to achieve, but the facts are you saying that Room 2 Drivers racing for the overall championship with Room 1 or a Room 2 Championship? You can't have all the cake and eat it at the same time.

  • The question is; should the Sprint Race of 50% time value, be worth the same amount of points as the 40 Minute Feature? This however is a discussion for another time...

  • A possible permutation is that a Room 2 Drivers could out score anyone (For Examples Sake) from 5th to 16th in Room 1, yet they are racing against competition who aren't considered to be the same calibre as Room 1, they could be promoted and demoted several times in the season but ultimately end up in Room 2, so do they finish Room 1 as 6th place or Room 2 as 1st? Or do we say this is one continuous race room despite not being in the same race as the other drivers in Room 1 finishing 8th or lower. The only alternative is to use a race time as a Time Trial and say we'll order everyone based on the best race time descending order?

  • Are you saying that the rest of Room 2 is the same calibre as Room 1 from 8th to 16th? Your system is based I guess on not running full rooms and having 10/11 drivers in the room, but once thats broken it has a massive flaw in it, because you're not going to have 7 Drivers moving up and down from each room, do you see what I'm saying?:)

  • Any multi-tier system using numbers as you've shown and also demonstrated the flaw in by, the fact you can't expand it past 2 tiers without having to reset all the values completely again. Its a mass of numbers and complications with far to many variations and changes needed to keep working should we grow bigger insize and its not needed if we decrease in size. A simpler system would outcompete as its based on the standard 1 room format.


My Question is: Would you rather have just 1 Championship? or Have 2 Championships? for the guys who won't have a chance beating the fastest drivers can have a chance at winning something for once and not just making up the numbers? From a competition point of view this is more of a spectacle than competing for 10th place out of 25 overall.



  • Anyone can create a points system by throwing a bunch of numbers increments apart, that's not the point I'm trying to make. You could have 1000 variations and still not find the perfect one.
  • The point is using what makes sense, the more complicated the more to go wrong, the more people don't understand and the more it looks like a confusing mess.
  • Let's not reinvent the wheel, let improve it and keep it rolling in a more efficient way.
Yeah you make in general very valid points Ash but ultimately this is what the co-ords - not me, are looking to make the basis of the league currently with the open tier system.

They've asked for suggestions/ideas for a new points system and I put my suggestion(s) forward, though I admit I find it a bit annoying that you seem to be suggesting that I just 'threw a bunch of random numbers' together for the points system I came up with.

Of course I know what I've suggested isn't perfect but it's as balanced as it can be for the what I believe the co-ords are currently looking for, its all well and good saying it has potential problems x, y & z, but you haven't put up a alternative, so how about instead of side-stepping the issue you also put forward your own points system, that way I can pick out all the flaws that yours has as well.:p

And with sprint races you mentioned maybe giving out less points for the sprint race, if you did it won't help necessarily make things tighter in the championship as it will put more emphasis on the feature, at least with equal points for both currently, it still offers the opportunity for drivers who have a bad feature race to gain back some points in the sprint, reducing the sprint points will reduce there chances of making any decent inroads on the night.

  • One clear point to make is that we should reward every finishing position with Points 1st to 16th so you take something away from each event.
Good Article on F1's views about a 2020 change for 1st to 15th points - https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/f1-considering-new-points-system-for-2020-20180709
With F1 I'm more of the opinion that points need to be earned rather then giving out as participation prizes, with our league because of the open tier system everyone in tier 1 has to get points, though I feel Season 1 more or less had the right idea with just the top 10 scoring points, as its impossible for anybody to retire from a race in a ordinary sense, the only way to not finish is simply by dsc or quitting currently.

The only choice is to Simplify; and remove the active tier system in due to the fact it's over complication is just resulting in more confusion and work for the Coordinators.

Both Tiers should use the same Point system, Why?? Because it's the simplest and best way and works everywhere else. Don't need to make an example of some numbers as there's plenty of versions already available from F1, WEC and any other "Championship" based competition. We take one of those tweak it to fit in what we have e.g. 16 drivers, there's plenty of systems we've used in the past available in the Forum Archive.

Before you say your devaluing Room 1s Points numbers allowing Room 2 to score more or the same, does F2 devalue F1? Does F3 or F4 Devalue F2 & F1? All use the same Points system. Room 1 is the premier Room, I think it's fairly obvious what that means. Room 2 is the feeder tier up to Room 1.

Sadly we can't have it so everyone's a winner, Sport is results driven at its core. Ideally Room 1 is the best Drivers in terms of race craft, gamesmanship, and so on, but performance is the differentiator in achieving these results, just like a 100 meter race the fastest comes first.

The tier systems need to be looked at as a longer term investment to compete in to move up, by having separate championships you earn the right to be promoted and those who failed to stay in Room 1 will be relegated and have the chance for promotion again next season, not a couple of races in or bad results e.g. Crashes, DSC, Illness, Holidays and so on...

You should earn the right through hard work and delivering results, this is your reward for Success in Driving Well Across a Season, Beating your opponents fair and square, it also is the seed for people to improve there driving, they have a goal to rise up to the highest tier.
If we went back to fixed tiers then I wouldn't complain and of course things would be a lot simpler (plus we wouldn't have to be discussing points systems in such depth), but I can see the merits of the current open tier system Ash.
Some people aren't great at TT plus as you've said more or less earlier, the car used in this season's TT might not give a real representation of that drivers ability and when you add the fact that some drivers are better at racing then TT, at least using the promotion/demotion system during the season is a way to move drivers into tiers there better suited too whilst also letting them carry over any points earned in previous rounds.

As for Fastest Lap and Pole Points, I don't think these should be removed, they can prove vital in deciding championships or recovery drives or to anyone at the back of the grid to pit for fresh tyres and give it a go.
This is something I completely disagree with (as you know probably;)) F1 doesn't use it and never has and they've never had any complaints, why should getting poles or fastest laps potentially make the difference in a tight championship?
For example theres a 16 race championship and two drivers are battling for the championship, lets say one driver wins 9 and finishes 2nd in another 7, and the other driver wins 7 and finishes 2nd in the other 9 but they win the championship because they had more poles and FL's surely that's not fair or right, as over the season in general they been beaten by the other driver when it really matters - the race, yet they win the championship?o_O

Sorry not for me, points should only be paid and earned for the position in the race you finish, its what championships are fundamentally based on and its the fairest way to ensure the driver who did the better job over the season - wins the championship.

The opportunity is earned across a good season, Drivers in the AOR F1 leagues wait 21 Races/ weeks to get promoted, our seasons last a lot less than half this so staying in Room 2 is hardly hurting you, unless a driver is winning every race by lapping everyone which clearly shows you're to fast for that room.


Another point to make is: The chance is given at the start of the season using the Time Trial to gain your placement in the league in Room 1, this is the easiest way to move up if you want it so badly.
And if a driver is dominating a lower tier then It is hurting them and everyone else in that tier, that's why promotion/demotion can work. (I've covered the point about TT above)

This was an example of a doomsday scenario solution:cry:, it does work as I've ran it for a full season a few years ago. The same works in the real world with GT-Pro and GT-AM, LMP and GT3 all in the same race together. As long as people stay respectful and don't have accidents it's fairly easy.
Yeah I'm sure it can, as we're genuinely a very clean league and how little used our stewards panel is its a testament to this.

For a "gimmick" it worked for over 5+ season on AOR GT6 and before on GT5, I think if we'd had this for Gr.4s we'd be looking at a tight championship battle with a lot more drivers within reach of the top position, also less likely to see multiple podiums each week from the same faster drivers and more midfield runners able to mount title or championship podium challenges.

BTCC runs a gimmick by adding Weight Ballast to cars, unfortunately it's not possible to add Ballast so lets take away some grip to achieve the same thing. :geek:

Yes its not favourable to the fastest drivers such as yourself, me, Hasnain and the GP1 Boys, but the fact is that rest of the guys deserve the chance to win races and have podiums without getting completely lucky that none of the usual feature race culprits makes it through the pack and are able to catch them before the 20 mins is up.


I'm like to see the playing field leveled especially when you have a few drivers who are obviously Fair Bit quicker which usually happens. We all come to race for fun, have great battles, to win or get good results by beating someone else fairly. :)

Making the top guys have to use racecraft to get past because they don't have as much grip as they would normally find on the same tyre as the slower guys, brings there pace more into line.
It makes the fast guys have to actually race people rather than blasting past on the brakes it will give the not so quick guys the chance to defend and later attack again, the faster drivers will eventually make up places as they're usually more consistent but they cannot dominate the sprint race this way.
(Why did you feel the need to bold all this above? Its almost as bad form as using caps - anyway I treated and read it the same as everything else you wrote)

We clearly have very different view points about this, for me success needs to be earned the good old fashion way not given out, especially when racing at the highest level.
People shouldn't need a chance of winning or competing at the front as the only incentive of why to league race, if that is the only thing that keeps them interested then I would honestly say league racing isn't for them.

I imagine other people here will say 'well that's easy for you to say considering where your normally racing', but I've been at both ends of the spectrum, like S13 on F1 2016 and especially Season 1 being toward the tail end of the midfield, but I didn't need the incentive of winning to keep racing. (As long as I'm enjoying it then I couldn't give a toss if I'm racing for 1st or 11th)
And I actually thoroughly enjoyed it, I knew full well I didn't have the pace to challenge at the front or even the upper midfield.
But I still had fun, I remember a race at the Nurburging GP that season where I had to drive my arse off to just be in the points (10th) and when I passed a faster driver at the death because they ran out of fuel at the line I took even more satisfaction out of that race.

By the end of that season I improved my pace and was able to properly race with the midfield for the last race.
(The only thing that did annoy me that season was that the championship leader decided for the last couple races after taking pole to drop to the back before the manual rolling start, I felt it was unnecessary as it interfered with my race.)

The point is though I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much if they decided to nobble the faster drivers out of charity to the slower drivers, and I wouldn't take it as a positive it I beat them under those circumstances.

The problem lies as the pace difference between the front runners and midfield is too big, 1s - 2s on the same compounds if it was much closer there wouldn't be a need for a Tyre Handicap,
We both know why there's currently a big gap and that's because of the cars we're driving, it'll be less of an issue next season.

If the Sprint race was shorted I'd agree there's no point in it, but 20 mins is long enough to make up any small lead.
As for saying theres no point to the sprint if its less then 20 minutes I don't agree with that, if your serious about increasing the likelihood of new winners and podiums finishers then reducing it by 5 minutes (to 15) would really help those chances as well as going back to a standard rolling start instead for the sprint, and you wouldn't need to complicate things by adding extra rules like a tyre disadvantage.

I think I've covered enough there. I'm sure you've got plenty more to add. But to avoid this getting out of hand let's agree to disagree.:)
Er...No.:ROFLMAO:

Look you made your points and I'll naturally counter them, as I will always do with anyone who has made/offered a direct different view point to my ideas/suggestions.

Now I don't have a problem with that (people airing there views) as long as there constructive, and I certainly don't feel like this has got anywhere near out of hand.

I think in some ways we are polar opposites to each other as to what we think is best for a league and I have no issue with that, the only question is whether we're more likely to find some kind of middle ground or those dealing with Brexit.:p
 
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Delaney

F1 Senna Equivalent
Staff member
GT Coordinator
Mar 12, 2016
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I will comment on allllllll these writings, but I have a Season 4 to run too and a real life too (some would say that I don't, but I do).

I'm (of cause) also discussing this with the other organisers and You have been putting Your opinions in different places, so it kinda hard to keep track.

We are looking at some alterrations for next season and We will inform You about it in a short while. But it doesn't end there. We will still be looking at better ways of doing things also for Season 6, 7, 8 ......

I'm still reluctant to leave the open "tier" as it presents some obvious benefits. But it also present some problems, I admit that. The question is if the benefits are better and more important than the problems. And can We mitigate those problems by other means? Everybody want to race other people who are at the same speed and abilities, but as We say in Rd. 4 where We raced in one room, it's not that simple to judge who that is. We have a group of 5-6 people at the front who, in the cars that they use for this season, is about the same speed. Then We have a group of 10-11 people who are slightly slower. And last We have a group of 3-4 people that are a little bit slower again. In theory We could have only people from the fast room leaving and only have a few people left in RR1 and a semi full RR2, shouldn't it be possible to let all race together or to promote people? When We started S4 We were 22 people and I'll not set 6 people as reserve's. Some of the last sign ups were fast guy's, should they then just wait till 6 guy's had fallen off? No, I want people to be able to sign up, even for Rd7 (not for Rd.8 though). So We'll have to live with the fact, that We can be as little as 9 and 8 racing in two rooms for some rounds. It's not ideal, but it's what We can do.

What We are looking at atm. is ways of securing that people that are not able to race due to sickness, disconnects, work issues and other viable excuses will not drop out of their designated RR at first "offence" and even keep them "sort of up there" after the second. People that don't show will still get 0 points and therefore be relegated. We are also looking at a reduced points system in order to not have a winner after only a few races.
 
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Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
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I mean looking ahead short-term Delaney to S5 nobody knows how many drivers will sign up, but I think the league should be prepared for any possibility whether we end up with just 1 room of drivers or as many as 3.
The way to do that if you are sticking to open tiers is by having 3 different points systems prepared, 1 for 2 rooms and 1 for 3 rooms, and in the event we're 16 drivers or less 1 for just 1 room - however once the league commits to a particular points system it has to stick to it for the rest of the season.

What We are looking at atm. is ways of securing that people that are not able to race due to sickness, disconnects, work issues and other viable excuses will not drop out of their designated RR at first "offence" and even keep them "sort of up there" after the second. People that don't show will still get 0 points and therefore be relegated. We are also looking at a reduced points system in order to not have a winner after only a few races.
For me I can't see any other solution to make this happen other then what I suggested with the shootout or TT method race to race, to automatically designate promoted/demoted drivers on championship position is what caused these issues this season.

I still think and believe having the potential incentive of as many as 3 drivers going up (and 3 going down) with a definite minimum of 1 up and 1 down is a fair way to decide promotion/demotion race to race, but to prevent fast drivers being automatically relegated when they have an issue any round, that they should at least have the chance to earn and keep there place in the top tier just like anyone else who has a poor round.
As I said for this method top points scorer from tier 2 in the previous round automatically gets promoted and bottom 3 scorers of tier 1 and 2nd and 3rd highest point scorers from tier 2 from the previous round battle if out for the top 2 spots via a mini qualy session or TT.

Unless someone else can come up with and suggest a fairer and easier method, as I currently can't see any other or better alternative then this, if this isn't considered then I would then have to agree with @Ashracer2011's suggestion of going back to fixed tiers, as if we stick the current or go with a similar automatic promotion/demotion it won't work in the long run.

When We started S4 We were 22 people and I'll not set 6 people as reserve's. Some of the last sign ups were fast guy's, should they then just wait till 6 guy's had fallen off? No, I want people to be able to sign up, even for Rd7 (not for Rd.8 though). So We'll have to live with the fact, that We can be as little as 9 and 8 racing in two rooms for some rounds. It's not ideal, but it's what We can do.
Like I said in the past if the lobbies allowed 20 drivers we wouldn't have this issue with different rooms, but yeah I think having a intended minimum of 10 a room was fair, though once people either withdraw or aren't able to race a certain round, where left with the annoying situation of 2 rooms with one of 9 and the other 8 of course theres not much we can do in those circumstances and it is annoying for everyone, but we can't force a regular driver out just so we can have a full room of 16.

Anyway I don't have a problem for future seasons of 2 rooms once sign ups have reached 21 drivers, however with late sign ups I think a cut off point does need to be properly introduced I don't really like it as late as it currently is, I think it should be slightly earlier like after the 6th round or 2 rounds before the end of a season.