Sooo... Is this allowed? (Driver Advice/Incident Discussion) | ApexOnlineRacing.com

Sooo... Is this allowed? (Driver Advice/Incident Discussion)


Stevie

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
iRacing Coordinator
Aug 26, 2014
13,465
0
75199


So, chaps and chapsesseses, I've said a million times before that if you're involved in an incident and you think someone's done you wrong, then go to the Stewards Panel about it.

Even though I've said it a million times, it's actually only ever been used about 5 times (I didn't check), which means one of a few things:

1 - People are scared to go to the stewards for the sake of upsetting someone, or because they don't know if that person did actually did anything wrong.
2 - People can't be bothered to go to the stewards for the sake of laziness
3 - People don't care about their race and what happens.

Now, if it's number 2/3, tough. I'm not here to babysit you and do all the work for you. I do enough goddamn it.

This thread is basically the Drivers Briefing room. If you want to ask a question if something is allowed, or if you think that the car ahead did something wrong in a previous league race, but want clarification, then post it here.

Feel free to also use this thread as a 'What should I do in this situation?', type deal. Want advice? Post here!

Here, anybody can get involved in the discussion. This is not a replacement to the stewards panel and no penalties or warnings will come from this.

But seriously though if I see someone deliberately crashing into another driver they are getting removed and banned from the site immediately so you know.

All I ask is that you respect each other and respect the different opinions around. If people start hurling insults like 12 year olds because someone disagrees then I'll just give you a reply ban.

So ask your questions and get involved. I'm sure some of the @iRacing Coordinators will give their input on stuff as they see fit if necessary.
 

Bucefal

AOR iRacing GTE 2 time Pro-AM Champion
Premium Member
Sep 2, 2018
157
0
I don't feel it's worth a proper stewards inquiry but I think a reminder could be usefull to everyone about blue flag rules and how to use mirrors/relative in quali session...
 

Gxbbs

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,974
0
Blue flags is quite an issue tbh, nobody is abiding by them being mandatory. Rules state when a lapping car is within 1.5 seconds you have to let them pass, yet I’m following a car on a straight where it’s easy to let me pass at about .7 of a second and they don’t let me pass, then I am compromised into corners ruining my battle for position. This is something that people need to be reminded of and make sure they abide by it IMO
 

x Shuffle

AOR XB1 RallyCross S1 Champion
Feb 21, 2014
946
0
If people stopped moving in the braking zone that’d be great. I was always under the impression that once you’ve made your defensive move, you have to leave a cars width for the other car if you move back across.
 

Isir

PC Ginetta Pro League Champion
Premium Member
Oct 4, 2017
98
0
Blue flags are an interesting topic but if I may I can offer the view of somebody that is on the other side of the issue (I was lapped a lot in Monza and by P1 and P2 in Silverstone). I generally try to get out of the way but:

- The rule does not really say you need to jump out of the way the moment the blue flag appears. It says you must let the other car pass soon, without blocking and in a safe way. It is subjective, but one could argue that if you are 1.5 seconds behind on a straight you are not really being blocked. If you are 0.7, probably yes. It also gives examples of situations where the 1.5 second rule does not apply in the most strict way: "We hope that drivers will apply common sense when racing. If you're coming up to lap an Am battle, accept that they're not going to want to jump out the way and soon as possible". In summary, it is not a black or white thing.

- More importantly in my opinion: We have 50 cars on track and it gets VERY busy. If you need to get out of the way the moment the blue flag appears and there are 16 cars within one minute at the end of the race, you may as well stop racing because it becomes pointless. There is literally no space to slot a lapped a car between those that are lapping which means that you automatically need to let another car through, and then again, etc until the half of the field passes you - at which point P1 is probably on your back again.

- Note that basically half of the field is being lapped every race, so it is not just a small number of guys at the end that probably have nothing to fight for any more. This affects half of the people some of which are actually fighting for points and can have a decent-ish pace.
 

Asger8907

Premium Member
Premium Member
Mar 26, 2018
55
0
Yea mostly it's the mirrors issue. What I've experienced multiple times is opponents turning into the corner, as you're going down the inside, as if you're not there. I believe this possibly is caused by two issues:
  1. People literally don't check their mirror, and therefor can't know if there's anyone there.
  2. People turn into the corner on purpose, to frighten the driver going up the inside, i.e expecting the driver going up the inside to brake hard to avoid going down the inside.
It'd be cool if this was addressed.
To be clear I don't want to defend divebombs, that's not what I mean by going up the inside.


Asger :)
 

poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,068
0
Blue flags is quite an issue tbh, nobody is abiding by them being mandatory. Rules state when a lapping car is within 1.5 seconds you have to let them pass, yet I’m following a car on a straight where it’s easy to let me pass at about .7 of a second and they don’t let me pass, then I am compromised into corners ruining my battle for position. This is something that people need to be reminded of and make sure they abide by it IMO
Interesting thinking, I'm compromising your entry into corners. Doesn't Your suggestion to let You pass on straight compromise my race even more (compared to when I leave You the inside of the next corner)? I find it baffling that the people in higher tiers or higher up the field think that the cars they lap are not racing at all and should park besides the track when they are coming.
 

Stephan

AOR iRacing GTE S3 AM Champion & Super Mod
Staff member
Super Moderator
iRacing Coordinator
Premium Member
Oct 19, 2016
7,394
0
Blue flags are tricky, and I see them a lot.
In past seasons, I jumped out of the way when approaching 1.5s. I lost so much time, taking myself out of battles doing that and compromising my own race.

I am now a lot more realistic, I make sure to let everyone by at the earliest convenience, without loosing a ton of time myself.
If you're 1s behind at the end of a straight, I'm not waiting, I'll let you by after the turn.Certainly there's no loss for the car behind.

When I see 2 cars in a battle approaching, I try to let both past to not interfere.

But with such a busy track, it happened now at Silverstone that I had a faster car at my bumper for a corner, or series of corners, that don't allow passing.
Lifting before would have cost too much time.

Personally, I think, I am very aware of the relative and my mirrors, though the M8 has a big blind spot between mirrors and camera and I almost lost someone in there causing a code brown.

I try to communicate via voice chat if I pull over, change line, etc. for blue flags, to make sure the car behind knows my intentions.

If anyone has a tricky situation with me, or feels, I blocked them but might not open a stewards inquiry (it's your right and I wouldn't be mad!), please share it, let me know, give me feedback :)
My race craft is still developing and feedback by faster, more experienced drivers is invaluable.

As for the quick cars, keep in mind the skill gap. Had a misunderstanding with @Claudiu_Clima into turn 8 I think. (wasn't blue flag, but technically for position, but hey, we know who to fight and whom to let by)
Claudiu thought I lifted for him, but that was actually my normal braking point. Almost turned into him and narrowly avoided the contact.
Nothing wrong from Claudiu, he thought I lifted, nothing wrong from me, I didn't expect the "divebomb" (it wasn't one) - just a good example to keep the skill gap in mind!

Same applies to leaving room in battles or when passing: Sufficient room on the PRO level is probably not sufficient room on the AM level.
 
Reactions: Isir

Zonerouge12

Pro Karter
Oct 3, 2018
44
0
Be careful not to confuse the blue flags in qualifying and those in the race !

Let's pass immediately in qualifying but in the race the 1.5s rule seems too heavy ?!
I agree with the opinion said above on the loss of time and space that can be caused by these 1.5s !

I share the opinion of Asger8907 on overtaking but concerning mirrors do not forget that everyone is not equipped with triple screens or other ...

I think it would be good intelligence to let pass the car that follows us or we catch up when it is much faster and it is not the end race of course, it would avoid a lot of incidents !
 

poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,068
0
Blue flags are tricky, and I see them a lot.
In past seasons, I jumped out of the way when approaching 1.5s. I lost so much time, taking myself out of battles doing that and compromising my own race.
Yeah, I have always done that too. But I think the main problem here is that the 1,5s is written in the rules, so people higher up read that like we have to park it on straight if we see them appearing in our mirror.

If anyone has a tricky situation with me, or feels, I blocked them but might not open a stewards inquiry (it's your right and I wouldn't be mad!), please share it, let me know, give me feedback :)
My race craft is still developing and feedback by faster, more experienced drivers is invaluable.
I'm not more experienced, but I can give You feedback. At Silverstone You let me pass too early, I was no where near enough to lose time behind You.

As for the quick cars, keep in mind the skill gap. Had a misunderstanding with @Claudiu_Clima into turn 8 I think. (wasn't blue flag, but technically for position, but hey, we know who to fight and whom to let by)
Claudiu thought I lifted for him, but that was actually my normal braking point. Almost turned into him and narrowly avoided the contact.
Nothing wrong from Claudiu, he thought I lifted, nothing wrong from me, I didn't expect the "divebomb" (it wasn't one) - just a good example to keep the skill gap in mind!

Same applies to leaving room in battles or when passing: Sufficient room on the PRO level is probably not sufficient room on the AM level.
I had a "incident" with Claudiu on second to last lap at turn 1. He caught me fast, but he was still far enough that I didn't expect him to go for the inside yet. But he disappeared from my rear view mirror at the last second before I was planning to turn in so I assumed it was a divebomb and I went wide to avoid a crash and almost killed myself doing that. In reality it wasn't a divebomb, but he faked me to believe it was. As I have been taken out too many times lately, I just expect the worst out of everyone and this means I'm not actually racing anymore, but only avoiding everything that remotely looks like a divebomb.



On another topic, qualifying... In my first race (and every one after that) on Iracing side, I was really surprised to see people overtaking each other on the out lap. In pcars we had a agreement that we don't overtake on the out lap, so everyone can leave enough room in front of them to get a clean lap in. I assume you guys don't have such agreement here?
 
Last edited:

Argon

Premium Member
Premium Member
Aug 8, 2016
240
0
Alright. Blue Flags. This season we have 50 cars on track. And yes, I have had to let lapping cars by quite a bit. Honestly, if anyone is expecting a lapped car to fully yield when someone is 1.5 seconds behind them (not saying anyone is), you might want to look at it from the other driver's perspective. A faster car is not worth a slower car losing 2 to 3 seconds to let them by. Now we go to the other extreme. Yes, when you have a lapping car within .5s and 1s behind you, you should make effort to let them pass without impeding them. That still doesn't mean I'm about to pull over on a straight when a couple seconds down the road I can give you the racing line into a corner and limit my own damage. Same for tight sections; if you happen to make up a lot of time in the middle sector of Interlagos, I'm sorry, but I'm not going off track or create a dangerous situation to let you by.

Now, things get a bit different when the cars behind are fighting/close or I'm towards the end of the race with no one around me. I'll happily give up some time to let you guys' last laps continue to be awesome. If anyone in the past has had trouble with how I deal with blue flags, I'd like to hear, but I feel I've gotten to a point where I know I'd be holding up cars behind and where on the track that shows the most, so I can move out of the way before that happens.

Maybe we just need to look at the rule and amend/change it for next season to reflect the behavior that is supposed to result from it. But I'm pretty sure it was never meant to make lapped cars coast all the way down a straight and lose 2-3 second, just because on of the leaders just got withing 1.5 seconds of you.

PS Communication could also be better (just read Stephan's piece). Either be very clear as to what you are doing to let someone by, or... just tell them what you are going to do. I feel voice chat is underused in these circumstances.
 
Last edited:

Deerladog

Premium Member
Premium Member
Aug 24, 2017
501
0
@Zonerouge12 can you clarify what you mean by "lets pass immediately in qualifying"?

If I am on an outlap, and you are on a flying lap, then yes, I should ensure I am completely out of your way. But if I am on a flying lap, and you are behind me and clearly going quicker, I don't believe I should move for you, I shouldn't have to abandon my lap because the driver behind was unable to find himself a suitable gap.

And I agree with @poisike78 in terms of outlap etiquette. If both drivers are on an outlap, don't ruin the gap he is attempting to create by shoving your car there. Drop back and find your own gap. If you're behind a much slower driver, tough luck. Either make a bigger gap, or ask him if you can go ahead.
 

poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,068
0
And I agree with @poisike78 in terms of outlap etiquette. If both drivers are on an outlap, don't ruin the gap he is attempting to create by shoving your car there. Drop back and find your own gap. If you're behind a much slower driver, tough luck. Either make a bigger gap, or ask him if you can go ahead.
I don't think they have this agreement here. I was overdriven on my out lap by countless people at Silverstone. If they do have this agreement, then I'm even more baffled by this behavior by so many people.
 

Deerladog

Premium Member
Premium Member
Aug 24, 2017
501
0
Well I think they should have this agreement, it is a good agreement to have.
 

Zonerouge12

Pro Karter
Oct 3, 2018
44
0
@Zonerouge12 can you clarify what you mean by "lets pass immediately in qualifying"?

If I am on an outlap, and you are on a flying lap, then yes, I should ensure I am completely out of your way. But if I am on a flying lap, and you are behind me and clearly going quicker, I don't believe I should move for you, I shouldn't have to abandon my lap because the driver behind was unable to find himself a suitable gap
(y)

In qualification it seems to me that the blue flag is presented that if we are in our turn of the stands ?!
 

Deerladog

Premium Member
Premium Member
Aug 24, 2017
501
0
I don't know, I'm yet to race in GTE league, and Endurance league has lone qualifying like a normal official race :p
 

Afterlithe

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 10, 2018
82
0
@Deerladog You got it right, on your out lap it seems you can get a blue flag from a car on its flying lap, and you should get off the racing line and let them by as soon as safe to do so. On your flying lap, while unlikely, there is a chance to get a blue flag but you should ignore it.
 

Stevie

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
iRacing Coordinator
Aug 26, 2014
13,465
0
Moving in the Braking zone:
Drivers should hold their line when in braking zones. This works in both attacking and defending a position. If you are defending a position, do not leave it too late to make a move. If you are overtaking either for position or lapping. Do not cut in front of the car you've just passed in the braking zone.
@x Shuffle - That's our official stance on it. If you have an incident you specifically wanna discuss, post here.

Blue flags:
The rules concerning blue flags will be slightly different to how they are in the official series. Blue flags will be a mandatory rule that must be followed. Once the car following gets within 1.5 seconds of the blue flagged car ahead, the car with blue flags must allow the car behind past safely at the earliest opportunity, without blocking them.

On this point, there is no entitlement for higher class cars to be let by lower class cars if they're on the same lap. They are entitled to fight for position if they choose do to so, however it is reminded that class points will not be altered based on you finished higher/lower than a car in a lower or higher class than you.

On a similar note, the 1.5 second rule should be seen the black/white ruling in the book. We hope that drivers will apply common sense when racing. If you're coming up to lap an Am battle, accept that they're not going to want to jump out the way and soon as possible. On the flip side to that though. Even if it is the Am fight for the lead, you must move out of the way for faster cars. Perhaps letting someone through on a straight before going through a series of corners is better than them desperately sending a move up the inside at one of those corners because they're in the their own fight.

Common sense folks.

Additionally, drivers may unlap themselves if they are quicker than the car ahead, but it should be done as to cost the car ahead as little time as possible. You could also ask over voice chat, the car ahead may realise you're quicker and let you go.
So, this has come up a few times both here and in the discord chat.

We need to have a number to it. Otherwise we will get people trying to lawyer their way out of a penalty. As it says, we hope drivers can use common sense when lapping or being lapped. Expecting a car 1.5 seconds down the road from you to instantly brake and let you through is a silly way of going about it. You aren't losing time at that point, regardless of where you are on track.

Use the 1.5 second rule as a guide. When the blue flag pops up (Which pops up at 1.5 seconds) be thinking about where you're going to let them through. It'll give you a few corners to know how quickly they are compared to you if nothing else. If they're easy 2 seconds a lap faster, you probably won't need to help them that much, perhaps just leaving them the inside line into the next corner will suffice. If the pace difference is minimal, then you're going to have to do more to them through. The argument of "Well, they didn't get close enough and I wasn't losing them time" doesn't fly. At certain tracks where it is hard to overtake, you may only be a few tenths a lap slower than the car trying to lap you. So you may not be costing them a lot of time, but that is not the point. They might not have the out-right pace advantage to lap you easily, but ultimately, they are still ahead of you in the race. They have up until that point, driven faster than you (for whatever reason) and therefore, it is your responsibility to get out of the way.

The alternative if you don't get out the way because 'you're not costing them time' is that it's more likely they'll get wound up, throw it up the inside and either wreck both of your races, or you'll end up with a penalty.

There simply is no point in arguing it on either end. Don't be so aggressive lapping people, because if people obey blue flags with common sense, then you won't need to.

We deliberately relaxed the blue-flag rules this season because I (I think it was me who suggested it) thought better of the grid of drivers we have, and felt that everyone is race-savvy and smart enough to know when they do and don't need to get out the way.

If people can't follow it, then we go back to a much stricter rule, and there will be no getting around it. We'll just revert to writing rules as if people don't know what they're doing. This means that Am battles, for the class lead or not, WILL have to put on the anchors, and if they don't and the driver lapping puts in an enquiry about it, that driver WILL get a penalty. And that would be wholly unfair.

Basically, it works both ways and you've all got to use your heads while driving.

Also regarding blue flags in qualifying:
Qualifying Etiquette:
In qualifying, it is your own responsibility to find free space on the track when starting a hot lap. A car on a hot lap does not have to yield for a faster car approaching from behind. If you are on an in- or out-lap, however, you have to let the car pass without blocking them. If you are on a fast lap approaching a slow car, flashing your lights is a way of notifying them that you're on a fast lap.

Holding up a driver may result in a penalty.
I think the other thing to consider is some people want a slow-out lap to preserve tyres. Others just want to get on it immediately.

To clarify, in qualifying. If you are on an in- or out-lap and the car behind is on a fast lap. You MUST move out of the way immediately. Not after the next corner; immediately.
If you're on a fast lap, and someone catches you if they're on an out-lap, they should not disrupt your lap overtaking you.
If you're on a fast lap, and someone catches you if they're on a fast lap, you are under no obligation to let them through.
 

Merlin Cooper

Premium Member
Premium Member
Nov 2, 2017
236
0
great idea to have a post where we can have a discussion about interpretation of rules.

From my point of view the "Stewards panel" should be used whenever a rule/regulation is violated - not only when huge pile-ups happened. None of the driver should take that personally, it's just part of racing and it's much better to file a protest than complain on the chat. Having said that a live steward would make it even better because getting the penalty during the race might hurt more than after the race.

By the way I would not expect not to protest even I apologize after the race - if I make a mistake in the race and e.g. cause a collision (car contact) I would fully understand if I get protested and be penalized by the stewards.

Getting clarification of blue flags I would like to start a descussion of yellow flags - here are my observations:
  • very often people do not really lift / slow-down when yellow flag is shown
  • sometimes people overtake at yellow (not talking about slowly passing cars involved in the incident)
Both situation are creating the potential of more incidents - thus I do think yellow flags should be informed as well and ignoring yellow flags should be reported as well.

Interested to see what the others opinion on that is.
 

Stevie

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
iRacing Coordinator
Aug 26, 2014
13,465
0
When we look at big incidents, we have previously given reprimands to drivers who appear to have not slowed down, or had plenty of time to react and still add to the incident.