TC S1 Pro Round 4: Nürburgring Sprint - 13.06.18 @8PM | ApexOnlineRacing.com

TC S1 Pro Round 4: Nürburgring Sprint - 13.06.18 @8PM

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poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,113
970
So I finally had time to watch my replay. I want to make it clear that I won't take any further action about any of the incidents, just want to know what other people think about these. Anyone is free to comment and say what they think, but lets keep it friendly. The idea is not blaming someone, but talking about the incidents and maybe we all learn something in the process.

First incident, me and @RAINB0W . @RAINB0W seems to go wide and I take the inside line. I guess you can say that I was asking for trouble by doing that, but at the time I saw him going wide and the inside was clear, so I went for it.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/qnt7wuhea2oxnab/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.21.24.01.mp4?dl=0

Second incident, I was not involved in that one, but I want to point this out. No idea how anyone could think that such a move can end well? @chabas ?
That is what I was talking about earlier, there is a pack of cars in front of me and I decide to take it easy, brake early and wait it out, but there is always someone behind who thinks that he can overtake everyone in one corner. This time I was lucky and didn't get taken out.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/d1n92vnadipl29t/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.23.03.02.mp4?dl=0

Third incident, me and @StormENT . Sorry about the hit from behind! I was not expecting You to move over under braking. Luckily I didn't take You out completely.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/1e9hxj2qtdy70aq/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.29.30.03.mp4?dl=0

Fourth incident, I get taken out. So it seems @Pirate (not sure if it is You?) seems to get a penalty warning and does the right thing, I pass him cleanly and take my normal line into the chicane but get hit from behind really late in the braking zone. Totally missed Your braking point?
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/43gnj6sqy3z86gi/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.39.43.04.mp4?dl=0

Other then that, it was really hard but a good race for me. I noticed in my replay that @DaWu got taken out again, how much bad luck can a person have? Really sorry to see such racing.
 
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S4Howie

GP2 Reserve Driver
Nov 1, 2017
351
252
First Incident: Looks like @RAINB0W doesnt drive with spotter and is not useing mirrors much. But i need to say i had several situations like that with the other drivers with frontwheel cars. i would also say they drive other line than BMW and @RAINB0W just stick to the line they drive fastest. But for the first laps it should be clear one is attacking so it was quite harsh to shut the door like that.

Second Incident: Just stupid not other to say. I noticed that behavior myself several times. Why cant one simply stay calm the first laps? The whole field is in a pack, tires are cold brakes are cold. Let the pack atleast sort itself over some laps and get your tires and brakes on working temps and then start attacking hard.

Third Incident: @StormENT was clearly in front and started moving outside also before braking he had all rights i think, next corner is a right hander so i would count that he will do what he have done, move far to the left. You was just a little to aggressive there, but that small tap is normal touring car racing. The close racing it provides you need to know the other drivers way more and may expect such moves to hold it absolute clean. So nothing to worry about i feel.

Fouth Incident: Big mistake under braking, but i can imagine he lookes behind watching out for others cause he was slow and then missed his braking point totally. I know such situations myself when you serve a penalty and behinders are aggressive. but you was clearly through and he need to watch you more at this point then others from behind coming.

In my opinion it was for the way we all know each other at this point and the close racing and especially the reverse grid thing quite a good clean fair season. Surely mistakes where made and some had less luck than others. @DaWu really was the unluckiest here. I also have taken him out one time because he didnt expect my move although we know each other for two GT3 seasons now but never had a fight in last lap together. We all learning every race.

Happy Le Mans Weekend all together
 

poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,113
970
Third Incident: @StormENT was clearly in front and started moving outside also before braking he had all rights i think, next corner is a right hander so i would count that he will do what he have done, move far to the left. You was just a little to aggressive there, but that small tap is normal touring car racing. The close racing it provides you need to know the other drivers way more and may expect such moves to hold it absolute clean. So nothing to worry about i feel.
Yeah, I agree that it was my responsibility to stay clear of him and I was not even planning to make any move against him in that corner. I was expecting him to go inside against the car that was in front of him, so I was just not expecting him to change line so close to that corner. The rules also say that You can't change Your line in braking zone, but as You pointed out, looking at the replay he started moving over maybe a bit before he applied the brakes, so maybe that's considered OK, I don't know where the line is drawn. But when it happened, I had no time to react to his move anymore, I think I was on brakes earlier then he was. I can take the blame for that one, no problem.
 
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S4Howie

GP2 Reserve Driver
Nov 1, 2017
351
252
he started moving over maybe a bit before he applied the brakes
yes his left was clear and he wanted to the outside for next corner, i expected that from him cause everybody want drive fast. Nothing to blame you much for i think.
 

chabas

Formula 4 2nd Driver
Dec 22, 2017
122
49
Second incident, I was not involved in that one, but I want to point this out. No idea how anyone could think that such a move can end well? @chabas ?
That is what I was talking about earlier, there is a pack of cars in front of me and I decide to take it easy, brake early and wait it out, but there is always someone behind who thinks that he can overtake everyone in one corner. This time I was lucky and didn't get taken out.
true, it wasn't my intention, I haven't noticed first distance mark and once I realised it it was too late.

PS: I think that I was patient in a lot of places and almost never take the first opportunity to overtake so I suggest to stop that sarcasm...
 

Campo675

PC S1 Touring Cars Pro Champion
Sep 29, 2017
207
97
Lol, that was me with @chabas and that was still a light one, I had another one on the tight right hand apex where I was taken out proper! Off the track and inches away from the wall. I’ll see if I can make a post of it.
But here is my opinion on it... I don’t do that type of stuff myself, but surely these are mistakes that can happen and it actually doesn’t get me upset unless it happens in first lap and specially on the first corner. (I was also taken out in the incident that happened in the first corner first lap)

What does upset me actually, is what caused the grouping of cars. If it’s a bunch of guys with similar pace all fight for a podium it’s one thing, but this was the same guy that defended his position even though he was about 2-4 seconds slower than the cars behind him, and he defended sometimes by exiting slower out of the corner while keeping to the middle of the corner too... that is deliberate!! And unsportsmanlike, now the current way of looking at things make this person believe that he is completely innocent in doing this, because the attacker must be careful etc. so the result is that you have championship leader all fighting for team championship piling up behind a guy that is much much slower.... obviously one will the be sitting with incidents like these. The chicane for example, I didn’t blame chabas as the guy that was leading the pack started breaking (difficult to judge) but felt to me like the first distance marker on the right, but My and most others used either the 50m or the little concrete starting point. So he started breaking about 50+ meters sooner!

I mention again, I don’t know what they do In car racing, but in the real motorcycle world where I come from, if you defend and slow the pace down like that for people fighting at the top of the championship, you will find yourself under investigation and loose friends very very quickly
 
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Campo675

PC S1 Touring Cars Pro Champion
Sep 29, 2017
207
97
And I know one can say, but being so much faster will make it easy to pass... well this race was proof that that isn’t always the case, and it creates chaos with so many people behind that person. And also depends allot of where they decide to be slow and where not
 

Pirate

Formula 3 Reserve Driver
Dec 7, 2017
224
99
So I finally had time to watch my replay. I want to make it clear that I won't take any further action about any of the incidents, just want to know what other people think about these. Anyone is free to comment and say what they think, but lets keep it friendly. The idea is not blaming someone, but talking about the incidents and maybe we all learn something in the process.

First incident, me and @RAINB0W . @RAINB0W seems to go wide and I take the inside line. I guess you can say that I was asking for trouble by doing that, but at the time I saw him going wide and the inside was clear, so I went for it.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/qnt7wuhea2oxnab/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.21.24.01.mp4?dl=0

Second incident, I was not involved in that one, but I want to point this out. No idea how anyone could think that such a move can end well? @chabas ?
That is what I was talking about earlier, there is a pack of cars in front of me and I decide to take it easy, brake early and wait it out, but there is always someone behind who thinks that he can overtake everyone in one corner. This time I was lucky and didn't get taken out.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/d1n92vnadipl29t/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.23.03.02.mp4?dl=0

Third incident, me and @StormENT . Sorry about the hit from behind! I was not expecting You to move over under braking. Luckily I didn't take You out completely.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/1e9hxj2qtdy70aq/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.29.30.03.mp4?dl=0

Fourth incident, I get taken out. So it seems @Pirate (not sure if it is You?) seems to get a penalty warning and does the right thing, I pass him cleanly and take my normal line into the chicane but get hit from behind really late in the braking zone. Totally missed Your braking point?
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/43gnj6sqy3z86gi/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.39.43.04.mp4?dl=0

Other then that, it was really hard but a good race for me. I noticed in my replay that @DaWu got taken out again, how much bad luck can a person have? Really sorry to see such racing.
Yes, #4 was me. I braked way too late, I'm very sorry. Hopefully it didn't cause big damage to your car. I did let you pass immediately.
 

poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,113
970
true, it wasn't my intention, I haven't noticed first distance mark and once I realised it it was too late.

PS: I think that I was patient in a lot of places and almost never take the first opportunity to overtake so I suggest to stop that sarcasm...
My question (or sarcasm as You call it) was not directly pointed at You personally, but more so to the incident as a really good example of what I have been talking about from the start of Touring Car season. Until people realize that such moves never work out, I will continue to point such incidents out. As there are still far too many such incidents, I find that my question was justified and not sarcastic.
If it really wasn't Your intention to overtake someone there and it was a honest mistake then fine, we all make mistakes, I have no problem with that. But I think we can agree that there are far too many such incidents and I highly doubt that they all can be explained with "I missed my baking marker" or if that is the case, then I think people who miss their braking markers too often should practice more so they don't take other people out so often. (again, talking generally, not specifically about You).

@Campo675 I agree with You partly. I almost never defend my position against someone who is clearly faster then me. I don't see any point in doing that. But that's just me and as far as I know, You have the right to defend Your position. I have also experienced that some people seem to slow down in strange places and it looks like they do it on purpose, but that is impossible to prove as maybe they just drive differently or made a small mistake or what ever. So I can't agree that someone needs to let a faster car pass them. It would make a lot of sense, even for the slower car (less time lost defending), but in the end they need to make this decision and they have the right to defend their position as long it doesn't break any rules.

@Pirate Interestingly I didn't get damage from this, but I lost a lot of time and places. I saw that You waited for me and thats ?
 

Campo675

PC S1 Touring Cars Pro Champion
Sep 29, 2017
207
97
@poisike78 , okay, hahaha so I had a look at that incident with @chabas, that def. was too hectic... I didn't know there were so many cars he had to pass. but in the end, I don't believe that was malicious or intended to take me out, I would def. suggest in the future however to be a bit more careful with so many guys in one group. the other incident with chabas I'm including... lol... maybe I should think he had it out for me? haha no just joking, i don't know if it was your fault or my fault... that hairpin was tricky with a nasty bump on the inside. but would like to hear from you what did happen for interest sake


@StormENT, man I have no idea why, but every time I was around you I had the worst lag and frame drops... might not look like much on the replay but in VR it made it very difficult, but also, random other than the fact that it happened when I was around you, it wasn't a specific corner etc. so i couldn't really plan for it. many more clips as we were around each other a couple of times but don't have time to load them all. on the first clip, check your skid mark above my car! lol, it was like that everytime.



I can definitely agree with you @poisike78 about looking at replays and judging defending, as in these replays it looks much less bad then actually driving behind the guy. But from driving behind him, when would it be okay to hit the brakes on the exit of the corner already travelling so slow that there is no way that one would run wide, also, swerving... I'm including clips of some defending that made things very difficult for me and lead to accidents with me and behind me due to unexpected driving. There is this thing about trusting the driver in front of you just as much as trusting the guy behind you. if you drive sporadically hitting your brakes on exits of corners and doing other random unexpected things like all of a sudden changing your brake marker 30+ meter sooner than usual etc. (i can record the a clip of the brake marker if you guys want to see that too) this can only lead to problems, surely if the racing world knows that then in sim racing it must also be respected. Being able to ride close and competitive requires you to trust the guy in front of you... and behind you. Also, lifting off the gas in a straight while changing to close the door on the guy behind you is not cool. as one don't even have brake lights to warn you. it causes so much doubt especially considering it seems that the blame always gets put on the attacking guy that one don't even want to try and pass


 
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poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,113
970
@poisike78 , okay, hahaha so I had a look at that incident with @chabas, that def. was too hectic... I didn't know there were so many cars he had to pass. but in the end, I don't believe that was malicious or intended to take me out, I would def. suggest in the future however to be a bit more careful with so many guys in one group. the other incident with chabas I'm including... lol... maybe I should think he had it out for me? haha no just joking, i don't know if it was your fault or my fault... that hairpin was tricky with a nasty bump on the inside. but would like to hear from you what did happen for interest sake

From what I see from Your video, I would say that it's another missed braking point or a divebomb. When You hit the brakes, there is no car by Your side and he seems to go straight (front wheels locked?) until he hits Your side because You are turning where the track goes. I don't see that You did something wrong here and his move was too aggressive for my taste. Others may disagree.

I noticed @Frihman brake lights flashing too at random places and I agree that it's distracting because my automatic response is to apply brakes when I see brake lights (there is not much time to think about it when driving close to someone). It seems strange, I have no idea if it's a game bug or if it was intentional. I assume it's probably not regulated by rules :)
 

Campo675

PC S1 Touring Cars Pro Champion
Sep 29, 2017
207
97
From what I see from Your video, I would say that it's another missed braking point or a divebomb. When You hit the brakes, there is no car by Your side and he seems to go straight (front wheels locked?) until he hits Your side because You are turning where the track goes. I don't see that You did something wrong here and his move was too aggressive for my taste. Others may disagree.

I noticed @Frihman brake lights flashing too at random places and I agree that it's distracting because my automatic response is to apply brakes when I see brake lights (there is not much time to think about it when driving close to someone). It seems strange, I have no idea if it's a game bug or if it was intentional. I assume it's probably not regulated by rules :)
was def not a bug with replay or ingame as I was not only seeing the lights come on but had to slow down, but these were just 2 short clips there are others where he would get off the gas and not actually brake, and notice if I go towards the inside he would change direction towards the inside, as I'm on the gas I would need to slow down forcing me to loose any extra drive I had in order to overtake. this happened many times

anyways, I would like to believe that this last race was not representative of how the league was raced... however I do know @DaWu mentioned that he experienced many things... so possibly even though I started from back in almost all the rounds, I might just have been lucky up until the last race.
 

chabas

Formula 4 2nd Driver
Dec 22, 2017
122
49
@Campo675 you reminded me about this one and I wanted ask the same. For me it was really strange as when I was inside I jus felt small bump and then it clipped me to you and rest you can see on the video. Strange because hit was rather light...

Anyway I still think that it was valid move as initially you left plenty of room...

When You hit the brakes, there is no car by Your side and he seems to go straight (front wheels locked?) until he hits Your side because You are turning where the track goes.
Isn’t it like this that you need to break a little bit later?
So you are saying that even when someone is next to you but the track is turning you are allowed to do it whenever you want? I think that I will be able to post plenty of examples of much more aggressive moves but still valid...

As you already have a video in this case I suggest to go to stewards and confirm good version.
 
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Campo675

PC S1 Touring Cars Pro Champion
Sep 29, 2017
207
97
@Campo675 you reminded me about this one and I wanted ask the same. For me it was really strange as when I was inside I jus felt small bump and then it clipped me to you and rest you can see on the video. Strange because hit was rather light...

Anyway I still think that it was valid move as initially you left plenty of room...


Isn’t it like this that you need to break a little bit later?
So you are saying that even when someone is next to you but the track is turning you are allowed to do it whenever you want? I think that I will be able to post plenty of examples of much more aggressive moves but still valid...

As you already have a video in this case I suggest to go to stewards and confirm good version.
I don't think this is worth taking to the stewards... Just thought it will be interesting to hear your thoughts about it... at that point I thought there would have been no way you would have been able to make the corner as you were too fast, but there is no way for me to actually know that, you might have been using the same brake marker the whole time, so maybe if I wasn't there you could have made the corner.. I don't know... what I do know is that it didn't actually upset me...
 
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chabas

Formula 4 2nd Driver
Dec 22, 2017
122
49
I don't think this is worth taking to the stewards..
Just to get final answer. Anyway I think that the whole season was quite clean at least in the front of group...
 
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poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,113
970
Isn’t it like this that you need to break a little bit later?
So you are saying that even when someone is next to you but the track is turning you are allowed to do it whenever you want? I think that I will be able to post plenty of examples of much more aggressive moves but still valid...

As you already have a video in this case I suggest to go to stewards and confirm good version.
No, I'm not saying that. I have understood that if a car from behind has reached your rear wheel with their front wheel when entering the braking zone, then you have to leave them room in the corner. If that is not the case, then it's the responsibility of the car behind to make sure that they don't take the front car out. I totally agree with that and understand why that is. If You make a move so late in braking zone like You did, there is too little time for CrewChief to tell the driver in front that there is a car by their side and the driver to react. This just doesn't work out well in online race.
Why do You keep trying to excuse Your questionable overtakes with saying others were much more aggressive? Did I somewhere say that everyone else drove perfectly? In fact I stated in my first post here that I have a feeling I was occasionally too aggressive for my own standards.
If You noticed someone being too aggressive, make a video of it and post it here, so they will know that this is not OK. Otherwise they will surely continue to drive like that.

As I was not involved in that incident, I can't bring that to Stewards. But if You want to prove me wrong, You can do it yourself.

EDIT: To make it even more clear, I'm not trying to get You a penalty or something like that. I just want You to understand that in my opinion such moves never end well in online racing. In my opinion there were far too many such incidents in this league. I'm not saying You were the only one causing them, I just pointed out what happened around me and I happened to see You, so nothing personal here.
I can't agree with You saying that this league was quite clean. Look for example at @DaWu and @tRIP.. results. I don't know much about @DaWu , haven't raced with him before, but I know he was in higher tier then me in S9, so he must be faster then me. I have raced with @tRIP.. and he finished usually in front of me. So looking at the results and the fact that people are giving up because they get taken out every race, there is something certainly wrong here. They seemed to get taken out every race, how much bad luck can two people have? Again, I'm not saying You are at fault, so please don't take it personally. I'm saying there were too many such incidents caused by too many different people. If no one points this out, then nothing is going to change.
 
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DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
So i got mentioned a lot here.

I dont know if we can or should talk about "luck".
Sure there are situations you can be lucky or have bad luck.
But the overall problems were overly aggressive driving while some guys were not fully aware of others around and how to do things.
No i'm not telling guys "bad" or stuff like that.

No assists in this car but still some HP so its not an super easy car even tho its not super fast.
SO we saw a lot of locking up, drifting, understeering, oversteering...
That together with not 100% beeing aware of guys around and how to do things can lead to problems.

Some had clean races but we all saw the last race and and some had this kind of problems almost every single race.

And i dont know why some keeped driving like there is no tomorrow for every single race...

I dont know who that was in the last race but for 1-2 laps i was driving behind some one very close but i never touched him and always were aware of him and leaving the space.
But some guys just keeped sticking their nose where they shouldn't... tried to make moves around the outside what can lead to very very close calls in some corners, some keeped braking too late or were not able to hold their line when it was a 2wide situation... +
If you're not able to drive like this just back up and dont force it.

Most of the guys i knew from GT3 League were clean most of the time ( mistakes like @S4Howie and me did happend some times ) but some guys need to improve their driving with/around others.

Its better to back off some times and keep it safe as just force something.
AOR isnt pub-lobbys where you just go all out, a lot of you guys would've got big penaltys for some mistakes you made while fighting by the stewards.
So just as a friendly reminder, that you take it a bit more easy... especially if your car handling isn't the best.

No, not telling guys noobs or whatever, but racing is a learning process and its always better to take a step back and keep it clean than overdriving your car and making mistakes.
If you're slow, yeah you're slow but you can improve. Same goes for driving around others, there is always room to get better.
If you do 1-2 mistakes... try to never make them again instead of keeping the pedal flat.


Cheers and a nice Le Mans weekend guys :)
 

StormENT

PC GT3 S9 AM Champion
Nov 1, 2017
256
230
Third incident, me and @StormENT . Sorry about the hit from behind! I was not expecting You to move over under braking. Luckily I didn't take You out completely.
Video > https://www.dropbox.com/s/1e9hxj2qtdy70aq/Project CARS 2 2018.06.15 - 10.29.30.03.mp4?dl=0
Honestly didn't even notice this in the race so don't worry about it at all. Just a minor rub ?
You have raised an interesting point though.... what is meant by moving whilst in the braking zone? I'll often have a look up the inside to show the person in front I'm there but then point my car at the other side of the track and brake in a straight line but diagonally back across the track to take the racing line behind them.
I'm not sure where this would stand? Is it ok as long as there isn't another car on my side?

Anyway I still think that it was valid move as initially you left plenty of room...
This is only a valid move if you make the corner yourself. If you are behind him when you brake then you should leave him room around the outside. If you are beside him when you enter the braking zone then you probably have the right to the line and he should try the cut back.
Either way in THIS case the only way to know 100% would be to look at telemetry to see if you braked too late or not. My gut tells me it was a dive bomb and you were never going to make the corner. I don't say this because I think you are a bad driver.... I say this because @Campo675 was the fastest man on the track yet you came past him like he was on a Sunday drive! Also coming from that far behind you always run the risk of the other driver not seeing you.

As an aside for anyone going into the GT3 league.... remember there's a massive difference between FWD and RWD. I don't remember seeing many spins caused by hitting a Renault on the back corner as you can just stick your foot down and straighten out, whereas I saw loads of BMWs get taken out this way. In GT3 I find the slightest touch by someone will send you into a spin so you really have to be careful not to make contact. Much more so than in Touring Cars.
 
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poisike78

AOR PCars PC Ginetta GT5 S1 T2 Champion
Feb 28, 2018
2,113
970
Honestly didn't even notice this in the race so don't worry about it at all. Just a minor rub ?
You have raised an interesting point though.... what is meant by moving whilst in the braking zone? I'll often have a look up the inside to show the person in front I'm there but then point my car at the other side of the track and brake in a straight line but diagonally back across the track to take the racing line behind them.
I'm not sure where this would stand? Is it ok as long as there isn't another car on my side?
The same thing has happened to me twice in Touring car, so maybe it's just me who doesn't foresee this happening. Like I already said, I will take the responsibility for that incident. At the time I thought You are going to go inside and try to overtake the car in front of You, so I braked at my normal braking point because the road ahead of me was clear.
The rules say that You can't change Your line under braking while defending. As I was too far back and I was not planning to make a move to pass You, I guess You can say You weren't defending and then it should be fair play. I do the same thing, have a look inside and then brake a bit earlier then the car in front to make sure I don't take it out. It may not be the best idea if You have someone behind too, because the car behind may think that You are going for it and don't expect You to brake early to take Your normal line (like I did).
 
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