Closed Tier 6-R2-Lap 1- Massive pile-up between turn 3 and 4

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Borderline

S18 AOR PC F9 Champion
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Dec 25, 2017
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Apeldoorn, Netherlands
ACC Tier + Round Number: Tier 6 - Race 2 (Zolder)
League Coordinator: @Borderline
Date: September 22nd 2020
Members Involved: @Gildo8 (#8) @Raoualf21731 (#21) @Jeppi (#905) @Borderline (#48) @Daniel Monteiro (#50) @GerhardA (#258) @Gurken Koenig (#696) @aerosmudge (#13) @DRHans (#250) and serveral others.
Description: Massive pile-up between corners 3 and 4. It started with @Raoualf21731 being on the inside of @Gildo8. On the turn-in point he wasn't alongside, so @Gildo8 was entitled to take the apex, imo. But they collided anyway and this caused a massive pile-up in the end. I saw several drivers not respecting the yellow flags and they just only applied the brakes when it already was way too late. I wish the stewards to take a look at this all and see who all deserve a penalty. Not just for the initial collision, but also for those not respecting the yellow flags.
Evidence:

 

Raoualf21731

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 27, 2020
344
376
France
First and foremost, I want to apologise to all the drivers behind for what I see as a genuinely absurd racing incident. I’ve been caught so many times like this, I understand very well the frustration. I feel very sad that this happened.

After almost a year on AOR, I believe that it is the first time that I’m brought to the stewards. If there is one in favour of fair and clean racing, that’s me. Both in real life and online. I know very well the rule that says that the guy behind is responsible for making clean moves. But let me explain the context: there was no reason for me to force the way through/overtake and it was too quick for me to understand that the door would be slammed in my car so late and so harshly.

(Sorry for being very long but the action is really complex)


Context

I qualify P4 after a nice lap. After many hours of practice and the practice race of Monday, I knew that the Lexus was great especially on the race pace. I qualify behind Gilding and was happy with that because it meant that I could fight easily for the podium as he had to serve an SG for the incident from last week, turn 1. So I just had to wait to potentially take P3 in the first laps.

When the incident occurs, I know that I’m still behind. The guys behind me are close although I’m more focused on keeping the inside than anything else so I don’t feel the idea of brake checking very good. I keep the inside so we have plenty of space to go through the first corners, potentially side by side, which is quite common when reaching turn 3, lap 1. I don’t need to overtake at any moment there. I’m not fighting with Gilding who is in my mind technically not in the same race as me.


My POV and the slammed door

The full replay of my POV and what I actually see is here:
https://www.twitch.tv/raoualf/clip/ProudRoundKittenMoreCowbell

Gilding move on his right on the start/finish line so I make sure that I’m very wide turn 1. I’m still P4 as the next corner on the right approaches.

At that point, Gilding is a bit wide on the corner. Normal thing when it could be a side-by-side early race moment. I don’t see him between turn 2 and 3 but I know he is somewhere on my left thanks to the radar. He never disappears from this radar so I assume it is the same for him with me. I keep the inside. I think it’s clear on my POV and on the chase cam that I’m following the line along the track and following it closely.

Someone in the chat post-race said that I kept full throttle. This is not true. Between turn 2 and 3, I lift off so I can keep the inside closely. It is easy to do with the Lexus that is really stable in these conditions.

1600813167442.png


At 3:11.116 Gilding is still not in view and we reached the apex. For me, this is clear that he’s letting some space for a car potentially being somewhat on his side, avoiding a collision. Again, being side-by-side is something very common turn 3, isn’t it?

1600813167831.png


1600813168216.png


From there he decides to turn completely towards the kerb even if the apex has been reached. I’m caught by surprise. When I understand his intentions, I lift off but it’s too late. In less than two seconds, the side-to-side gap closed down on me. Had he stayed slightly more to the left as I thought he intended to, he had traction and there would have been no issue at all.

1600813168594.png



Could I had been even more cautious by lifting off before? Maybe yes. But it was impossible to focus on being sure that it was safe for the guys behind. I genuinely thought as the apex was reached that we would have enough space for two cars. I didn’t expect at all the door slammed.

Yes, I understand that I was behind but when you look at the whole start, I don’t think anyone can say that I meant to be aggressive.

From above, you can see that very well that there was some space for another car and why I got so surprised that it disappeared late and so suddenly. The apex starts where the fence is reinforced, as the leading cars show very well. There is a bit of mud too. I enlighten below the apex marks (approx. as the camera turns too but you get the idea).

1600813169011.png

Apex 2-2.png

1600813169838.png


(Full replay here: https://we.tl/t-CU6YQraTUc, timestamps 7:26-28)


Consequences and conclusion

Again, my first thought is that I feel so sorry that this incident caught up so many drivers. For me, it resulted in 25 seconds of damage and of course a race ruined despite a potential podium in sight. So I already suffered quite a lot from this contact I think.

I understand rule 1.2: “don't be too aggressive when trying to overtake. As the chasing car, it is generally your responsibility to not make contact with the car in front”.

But there are also rules 1.3.1 and 1.3.2 that fully apply here it was rather a defensive move (otherwise, I'd have attacked earlier):
  • "... When defending from another car, choose a line on the track and stick to it. Do not force a chasing car off the track by leaving it too little room. If the attacking car is alongside you going into a corner (generally if the attacking car's front wheels are alongside or ahead of the defending car's rear wheels), you must adjust your line to avoid contact."
  • "Do not leave it too late to defend a move. Make your move clearly and fairly. If you move too late and the car behind has no time to react, it is not them who will be blamed."

In my opinion, the apex was reached and it was too late and very risky for Gilding to aim at closing the door with my wheel obviously very close and appearing on the radar. This said, especially when you have to serve an SG and when it's on the first three corners.
 
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Gildo8

Semi-Pro Karter
Apr 28, 2020
16
2
England
@Raoualf21731 explain how there's much different going on here than last week especially considering you made a point about me not reaching out to apologise, the second you do the same thing its excuses. I didnt slam the door closed, or harshly as you said, you can see clearly from my wheel inputs that doesn't happen, I'm being super cautious because of the conditions and the fact that I did what you did last week: I accelerated through the corner and I was expecting you to do the same.

At the time of contact I'm not on full throttle, and you are full throttle. You lifted into the corner yes but right back to full throttle. Either you wanted revenge for last week or you got caught out by my being cautious. I didnt break check you, I didnt slam the door closed, you got caught out. I understand its frustrating and it happens, but unless someone is swerving around or driving dangerously, which I wasnt, its your responsibility not hit me.
 

aerosmudge

AOR XB1 GT3 Pro S7 Champion
May 20, 2016
944
736
I will take a more detailed look tonight, I qualified 7th and was around 9th as I came around turn 3. I was being cautious hence I lost a couple of places, but with 2 cars in front of me that went either side of @Gildo8 at the last minute I literally had no time to react and I was too close for there to be any yellow flags at that point. So I hit @Gildo8 head on, other cars hit me and that was effectively my evening over. I got back to the pits and came out after a 1:28 min pitstop 20 sec in front of the leader who would have lapped me for a second time. The only driver behind me at that point was @Gildo8 who obviously had a long pitstop but also a drive through.

@Borderline I see now that you have added my POV so I have nothing further to add. I wasn't full on the throttle and braked but it was just too late.
 
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GerhardA

Junior Karter
Aug 26, 2020
2
0
South-Africa
@GerhardA here, Honda car #258. From my POV I was directly behind the Bentley and the Audi of @Borderline which blocked my view from the accident happening on the inside of the turn. So I saw it very late. At the time there were no yellow flags and I reacted by coming inside and avoiding the cars on left but could not slow down enough as @Borderline did a much better job slowing down than I did and I hit him from behind. I was in turn also hit from behind which turned into a big pile-up.
 

Raoualf21731

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 27, 2020
344
376
France
@Gildo8 Well I actually came to the chat to apologise for the incident and in private to the one who opened the enquiry.

I think the situation is way different from Barcelona and I hope that the stewards will consider that.

In Barcelona, it was turn 1, not 3. I kept my left so we could go side by side onto the first corners. The contact occurred at that time at the end of a braking zone so the only thing that matters is how quickly you release the brakes. You had full visibility with your opponents keeping their lines in front of you and you went in the middle to create a 3-wide.

Here in Zolder I kept my right through turns 1, 2 and 3. In turn 2 you let a bit of room so as to avoid any issue and your line let me think that you had the same intentions turn 3. There is plenty of space but you decide to take the corner late as if it was free practice. As I said, seeing the replay there was more room for me to lift off during the corner but at the same time, I didn't think that you were going to risk an incident by coming back to the corner this way. It is at least very, very risky lap 1 with the radar clearly showing that I was very close. Contrary to Barcelona, it is not my front spoiler at all hitting you but my wheel that hit your side.

The whole action takes 2 seconds. In the first one, I'm sure that you'll behave like at turn 2. Then you get closer and closer and when I understand that you're fully getting back to the inside, I lift off as soon as I can. I'm not full throttle at all before the contact.

So yeah, I could probably have lifted off a bit more and earlier. Not by a lot though as the cars behind are very close to. Even if I had done so, how close my nose would have been from your car? It was so risky to come from the outside to the full inside with the cars so close on the radar. For me, there was a lot of room for two cars to come through the corner without taking this risk. I hope it won't become a rule as it creates misunderstandings like this one and it is really unsafe.


Last note: There was no need to revenge and I'm definitely not this kind of driver. For me you were going to do an SG so we weren't in the same race. I didn't even intend to attack you so yeah, that's a very frustrating incident.

Screenshot 2020-09-23 at 08.28.26.png


Screenshot 2020-09-23 at 08.36.25.png
 
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Daniel Monteiro

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 23, 2020
249
101
European Union
@Daniel Monteiro from car #50, and I will echo @GerhardA here, I don't recall having had yellow flags before the crash. All I know is that there was a car going off to the left of the track (Lexus) and suddenly the car ahead of me swerves right, presenting a green car (Aston) right on my path. I braked when I saw it but of course it didn't help much, and the rest unfolded.

I am sure I feel just as bad and as annoyed as any other driver involved in this incident, although I feel it was unavoidable anyway; had I somehow by instinct felt that there was an accident and slowed down, the following cars would have crashed into me because they would not have been ready to brake on the acceleration zone for no apparent reason. Unless we all had the same instinct, in which case this incident would not have involved anyone else apart from the Lexus and the Aston.

I see this as one very unfortunate racing incident with unfortunately a lot of collateral damage.
 

Jeppi

Premium Member
Premium Member
Dec 30, 2019
60
20
Paris
This is Spa all over again from last season in tier 5. I understand with @Borderline driving that we can't have a red flag. Those situations call for it though, but i guess this is the limitation of the sim where by the next lap the track will be cleared and the race can go on leaving a lot of casualties.

I won't comment on what happens in front since I won't read everything, those reports should be kept short and factual IMO.

My POV: I am close to car #86 we give each other space, i avoid a rejoin of car #13 which i think was ok the three cars gave each other just the space, i lifted to make it work. It looks like the three cars did what they needed to do to make it work.

Car #888 though bumped car #86 exiting turn 1 (that should push that car to be more careful). And then got close to me in turn 2 I considered that we are still at the start and going two wide specially since i have less speed is the thing to do so i stay outside, i still have to use part of the middle of the road, but car #888 exists the corner like I wasn't there and slightly unsettles my car.

I have to catch the slide then both cars #8 and #21 appear in front of me and i can' avoid them. I am not saying that the touch is responsible for my collision but it should not be there in the first place and the consequences get magnified if anything else happens around us.

When i get back on track i couldn't restart my car, I am sorry about that (I have to use my spare wheel and didn't react on time to restart the car), and got collected by the last car passing by. Thanks to those that avoided me btw.

 

Head Steward

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The stewards have reviewed the evidence and concluded the following:

- @Raoualf21731 is to blame for causing a minor avoidable collision, which has big effects on many cars behind. @Raoualf21731 will receive a 20 race results points reduction and 10 drivers license points (including 5 for it being the first lap of the race). An additional 5 drivers license points will be awarded for the fact the brakes were not held right after the initial incident.
- @Gildo8 will receive 5 drivers license points for not holding the brakes after the initial incident.
- @GerhardA will receive a 10 race results points reduction and 10 drivers license points for causing a minor avoidable collision on the first lap. By not reacting quick enough to what was happening in front, @GerhardA took out @Borderline and damaged his car.

Closed.
@Gildo8 @Raoualf21731 @Jeppi @Borderline @Daniel Monteiro @GerhardA @Gurken Koenig @aerosmudge @DRHans
 
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